Maybe the new name is what is causing all this? With the Enterprise name the difference between licenses/products was obvious, having Pro+ (without knowing what is all about) it feels too close to Pro.
While its logical to pay for a service to get bugs fixed faster, it’s emotionally upsetting seeing bugs that have been verified that are not fixed. Then emotions go to the next step thinking oh, so my bug wont ever get fixed til I pay. The root issue is having lots of verified bugs and their respective priority.
Maybe as a community, we can help Xojo know which items are a priority to the community? Right now we all add our feedback points on our own individual cases, so none rise to the top. I’m not sure how to accomplish this, but what if we all helped each other raise our little issues to the top? Maybe we need a FeedbackFeedback system where we submit our most important Feedback request and then all put the most popular item in our slot with the most points?
That absolutely does help. It’s clear to us that not enough people are marking cases as being amongst their top 5 cases. So you guys can help yourselves, help us and help the community by taking the extra step of indicating which cases are most important to you.
Can anybody tell me the difference between Pro Bugs and Pro+ Bugs.
A bug is a bug and has to be fixed, period.
And it’s NOT logical to pay for a service to get bugs fixed faster, i cannot believe that.
Post some information on how that works, i do know it but im sure there are people that dont understand how to set the feedback points.
Also when someone has set its point and one of the 5cases in the top list of that user is fixed & verified one should get an email to update its top cases… now you manually have to follow each case…
[quote=429272:@Hans-Jürgen Müller]Can anybody tell me the difference between Pro Bugs and Pro+ Bugs.
A bug is a bug and has to be fixed, period.
And it’s NOT logical to pay for a service to get bugs fixed faster, i cannot believe that.[/quote]
Not all bugs are equal. Some bugs dont cause much trouble because a workaround is obvious and easy to discover. At the extreme other end are bugs that are absolute showstoppers with no workaround and are causing a users business to grind to a halt. Those are rare of course. Most are somewhere in between.
Not all users depend on Xojo in the same way. Nearly since the beginning we have had ways for users that are experiencing significant grief because of a bug to get additional help from us. That help comes at any opportunity cost for us because if we are helping someone with a bug they are experiencing, we arent helping others at that time. Pro users get higher priority than regular desktop users who get higher priority than Xojo Lite users who get higher priority than those using the free version.
Xojo Pro Plus users get the highest priority of all.
It would be great if everyone could be treated exactly the same but thats not practical from a business point of view nor does it even make sense as bugs have varying levels of impact on varying levels of users.
You guys can discuss this in private at the conferences.
Derk and Hans-Jürgen can come to Cologne if they miss Miami.
[quote=429219:@Stefan Adelsberger]Let’s say I have a Pro Plus license.
Can I say this FB case has high priority for me so that it is implemented faster?
If yes what means “faster”?
Will I get an answer / guarantee that it will ever be implemented?
<https://xojo.com/issue/38141>[/quote]
@Alyssa Foley ?
I often feel very sorry for the Xojo Inc.
They always have to do the split between a community loved product/service and the wealth of the company. While they try to give their customers as many support, functions and responsiveness as possible, they cannot offer the same service level to each of us.
Additionally, our community doesn’t seems to like any changes in their product politics so much. We’ve seen this several times during the last years (I’m member since 2013). Changes often has caused little community griefs and riots, while the intention of Xojo always was to keep the synchronity of the product like the community it wants it, with a good going business in background.
The community often tries to understand the full background of a decision while sometimes there are some of them made internally and for the good of the company or the underlying worklflows.
We should not criticize every change.
my opinion.
Don’t you guys yourself give customers a higher priority if they pay more per year?
Even when you try to help everyone, you may look more into the issues of your important customers.
So if it’s worth the extra money, you can make yourself more important to Xojo Inc. by spending more per year.
[quote=429219:@Stefan Adelsberger]Let’s say I have a Pro Plus license.
Can I say this FB case has high priority for me so that it is implemented faster?
If yes what means “faster”?
Will I get an answer / guarantee that it will ever be implemented?
[/quote]
As Geoff said, not all bugs/cases are equal, some take more time, some less, some depend on outside factors, etc. So while we do give priority to Pro Plus customers, we simply cannot guarantee how quickly a fix or feature can be implemented, it’s really on a case by case basis. But we can work with you and will stay in communication with you to circumvent issues you encounter with workarounds if we cannot fix it quickly enough.
[quote=429284:@Geoff Perlman]Not all bugs are equal. Some bugs dont cause much trouble because a workaround is obvious and easy to discover. At the extreme other end are bugs that are absolute showstoppers with no workaround and are causing a users business to grind to a halt. Those are rare of course. Most are somewhere in between.
Not all users depend on Xojo in the same way. Nearly since the beginning we have had ways for users that are experiencing significant grief because of a bug to get additional help from us. That help comes at any opportunity cost for us because if we are helping someone with a bug they are experiencing, we arent helping others at that time. Pro users get higher priority than regular desktop users who get higher priority than Xojo Lite users who get higher priority than those using the free version.
Xojo Pro Plus users get the highest priority of all.
It would be great if everyone could be treated exactly the same but thats not practical from a business point of view nor does it even make sense as bugs have varying levels of impact on varying levels of users.[/quote]
I agree 100% that not all bugs are equal but all bugs are unintended behavior and should be fixed in a timely manner. What isnt practical from a business standpoint is a feedback case that is years old and marked as verified but hasnt been fixed. Ive long since wondered why Xojo isnt released in two branches, a LTS branch and a feature release branch. My guess is that the developers probably dont have the bandwidth to maintian two separate release trains so why not do a year or two of feature releases and then a year of just bug fixes instead of piling new features on top of buggy code?
The current feedback system is a joke. In the age of Java and HTML 5 one should not have to install an app that may or may not break with the next OS update or Xojo upgrade just to report a problem to the developers, nor should one need an active subscription to be able to put in a fix request since it benefits everyone, especially Xojo. As Hal said, people are always going to promote their own cases and not the critical bugs that dont affect them personally so having a voting system for bugs is pretty useless, especially since Xojo staff are going to fix the ones they deem critical first anyway. Sure, I can see that for feature requests but not for bugs.
@Geoff You read these forums and Im sure you can feel the frustration in the posts of your users when reading topics like this. The best thing you could do for us is to step back, take a look at the systems Xojo has in place for supporting customers and Xojos own apps, listen to the complaints of your users and make the necessary changes to fix the problems that so many have brought to your attention in these forums. Try to find a way to stop the bleeding without sacrificing the future of the product and, above all, fix the long-standing bugs that have plagued Xojo for years.
Could Feedback be updated to let us know more info like that separate from Status? It could help us too if there was a Priority field. Maybe from 1 - 10 or 1 - 100?
That is actually worst. I just look like bugs that are showstoppers for some users that are not paying extra, will not be fixed because the xojo team is busy fixing bugs that dont cause much trouble but are reported by pro+ users.
Having the Bug fixing to look as a business instead of a effor to make a better product, can cause mistrust and frustration on the users as @Anthony Mott said
Don’t you think, that the guys at Xojo Inc are able to identify critical bugs? I am very sure that they always prefer to solve critical and blocking bugs before Xojo-pro-plus-nice-to-have-solved-bugs. 
Well, that is not what they are saying. Also critical bugs are not the same as showstoppers bugs. Not all use the same features.
[quote=429623:@Ivan Tellez]Well, that is not what they are saying. Also critical bugs are not the same as showstoppers bugs. Not all use the same features.
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure though that they are able to keep that apart. Having a stable product for most of the users should always be more worth than one happy pro-plus customer.
Additionally as Dana and Geoff said: in the request-prioritisation is no change made while switching to the new name of “Xojo enterpreise” to “Xojo Pro Plus”.
And if you mean that “showstopper”-bugs of a non-pro-plus user could be underated compared to a “not-showstopper-bug” of a pro-plus user, then yes - this could happen. This is the reason why pro-plus-user will pay a 2,5 times higher price per year.
I assure you that’s not the case. This is not an either/or situation.
The overwhelming majority of our users have no trouble using Feedback. It’s hardly more of a burden to install an app as it is to visit a website. There absolutely are benefits to web applications and there would be benefits to Feedback being one (it would make it easier for us to update just as one example) but I think it’s overstating things to say that it’s a joke.
As for an active subscription, that requirement went away long ago. Anyone can report bugs. We only ask that you report them against the current version which you can test with even if it’s not the version you use. There’s little point in reporting a bug against 2017r4 when the current release is 2018r4 in which the bug may not long be reproducible.
You’re correct that people will promote their own cases first. That’s the entire point of the system. The more people that promote the same cases, the more those cases come to our attention. That system is one of many variables we taken into account when considering which bugs to fix.
The balancing act of knowing which bugs to tackle versus the time spent on features is a difficult one for nearly every software developer. There’s no good metric for the impact on users of a particular feature versus a bug or handful of bugs. Just as an extreme example, say there’s a bug that has been around for years and massively effects just a single user. We estimate the bug will take a month to fix. In that month, we could instead implement a new feature that every user will appreciate. Generally speaking we set priorities based upon the overall impact on our users. The bugs that affect more users (even if they haven’t been reported yet by a lot of users) will get fixed sooner than those that affect a few. The difference with Pro Plus is that those users have their livelihoods dependent on Xojo so they are willing to pay more to get some of their most important issues resolved quicker than they might otherwise have been resolved because they impact their projects but not many other user’s projects.
It’s not the perfect system to be sure but it’s the best one we have found so far.