Xojo Documentation is useless

[Emile_Schwarz]

@Torsten_Bernhard

What is the advantage we get with Xojo’s doc search over a search as implemented in Python docs?

It is my Doc Search !

[Ian_Kennedy]

The Control Set page needs to be put back into the new documentation. It is a feature of the language and needs to remain. The ability to load controls at runtime in no way replicates the use of control sets that I use all the time. For example:

I have a menu, on that menu are 26 MenuItems. they represent the different types of statistical analysis my application can perform. Each one of them basically has the same workflow. They present a dialog box requesting parameters, they wait for permission to proceed and then produce the output and display it. I have one Menu Handler for all 26 items. Without control sets I would need 26 different MenuItems each of them doing the very same thing.

To create this I simply name my menu items with the same name and ensure the Index property is set correctly for each.

To do this at runtime I would have to build the menu using code, label it in code and then have a class that dealt with the operational side. No were near as trivial.

https://tracker.xojo.com/xojoinc/xojo/-/issues/69708

[KarenA]

@Ian_Kennedy

The Control Set page needs to be put back into the new documentation. It is a feature of the language and needs to remain.

I remember, I and others, posting that the two features are not the same and that controls sets serve a different purpose when this came up before and they are both needed and control sets should not be deprecated (or hidden!)…

But Xojo Inc seems to think otherwise, despite what to me seems to be arguments that should be persuasive… They have been doing a lot of that.

-Karen

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Geoff_Perlman

In the old docs (and you can try this yourself), the first page of search results (20 items in total) doesn’t include a single page that has anything to do with graphics.

He wasn’t search for “graphics”. He was searching for “grap”. When you search for “grap” in the old docs you get nothing related to graphics. In the new docs you at least get items related to graphics and now, after I added a “graphics” hint, you get the graphics page itself.

This is an issue with this particular term because it’s a common actual word all over the documentation compared to something like DesktopListBox for example.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Julia_Truchsess

Type “Control Set” into the search field:

That’s not a search engine issue. It’s because that page has been removed from the documentation. We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Ivan_Tellez

Deprecated items should be last in the list

Unfortunately I don’t think there’s anyway to make them appear last. What we could do is make them not appear at all. We might be able to make them not appear in the search results but still appear if you go directly to the page itself. I’ll give that try because I agree with you that having them appear high in the list is annoying.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Greg_O

If you have to explain all that, it’s a bad design.

This is the very first time I have ever had to explain it. And it’s the built-in icon set. It’s not one we created.

[Julia_Truchsess]

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

I think this is a very misguided initiative. You’ve stated on numerous occasions that your target audience is the somewhat less-advanced coder. One of the most appealing aspects of Xojo for newcomers is the drag-and-drop WYSIWYG GUI editor. Creating controls at runtime, while of course very useful and powerful, is the antithesis of the WYSIWIG GUI creator. It’s an advanced technique. Control sets are extremely useful for beginners and experienced programmers alike, whether or not someone at Xojo thinks that runtime-created controls are cooler. Xojo is supposed to be a RAD environment. Whipping up something with a control set is often quicker for an in-house tool, proof of concept, etc. IMO Xojo should in general refrain from offering subjective opinions about how users should or shouldn’t code in the documentation. Tell us what it does and how it works. You don’t know everyone’s situation and application considerations.

[Beatrix_Willius]

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

What is the difference? And where did you tell users what?

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Torsten_Bernhard

SPHINX is Python’s documentation engine, so I had a look at Python’s own documentation.
One notable difference is the search engine. It employs the standard workflow of

• enter search criteria
• hit ‘enter’ key/search button to launch search
• select desired content from result list
• hit ‘back’ button to get back to result list for selecting other content

whereas Xojo’s search engine requires

• enter search criteria
• select desired content from result list
• re-enter search for selecting content from the same result list

Yes, Python uses a different search results experience that is not real time. We chose to go with the real time experience.

[Tom_Dixon]

@Beatrix_Willius

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

What is the difference? And where did you tell users what?

I thought that is what a control set in Desktop was under the hood, an array of controls?

Also it’s very disappointing that that a control array isn’t supported in Web 2.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Julia_Truchsess

You’ve stated on numerous occasions that your target audience is the somewhat less-advanced coder.

That is inaccurate. I’m quite sure I have never said that. Our target audience is anyone who wants to create apps fast. Some are hobbyists, some are citizen developers and some are professionals. Even amongst these three groups, the experience and skill level vary quite a bit.

@Julia_Truchsess

IMO Xojo should in general refrain from offering subjective opinions about how users should or shouldn’t code in the documentation.

Our goal is to help users be successful. Sometimes that’s developing new features and other times it’s helping them understand good development practices and techniques.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Tom_Dixon

I thought that is what a control set in Desktop was under the hood, an array of controls?

Also it’s very disappointing that that a control array isn’t supported in Web 2.

It would seem that way but no, that’s not what they were. What are you trying to accomplish in a web app where a control set would have been the solution?

[MarkusR]

endless discussion because a search need more input than one textfield …

[Tom_Dixon]

@Geoff_Perlman

What are you trying to accomplish in a web app where a control set would have been the solution?

Gosh the last time I wanted to use it was probably over a year ago when testing web 2 features and I moved on and went a different design direction. Since I know it doesn’t work for Web 2 apps I consider it out of my toolkit, but if it was there I likely would consider it for future apps again.

[KarenA]

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

They have different uses cases… That Xojo inc can’t seem understand that is very disheartening… to say the least.

• Karen

[Michel_Bujardet]

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

That completely defeats the very purpose of the IDE. Control sets can be created in the IDE, whereas arrays of controls have to be created in code.

In a control set, event handlers are common to all members. Doing the same with an array of controls requires some doing.

[KarenA]

@Geoff_Perlman

Our goal is to help users be successful. Sometimes that’s developing new features and other times it’s helping them understand good development practices and techniques.

How are control sets bad practice? They certainly help with Xojo being WYSWYG RAD , at least IMO.

-Karen

[ChristopheDV]

@Geoff_Perlman

We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

When did you say this? And can you share a very good reason why to use arrays controls instead of control sets? Arrays controls are counter productive (to say the least).

[Ian_Kennedy]

@Geoff_Perlman

That’s not a search engine issue. It’s because that page has been removed from the documentation. We have been telling people for years now to not use control sets and to create arrays of controls instead.

Would you like to tell me how to do that, with the IDE, and Menus? As far as I am aware there is no way of doing it. Without writing any code.