Xojo 2020R1 : a plea for a quick R1.1 release

Targets Web
1

As I dig into it more, I’m finding so many bugs in Web 2. Bugs with very basic functionality where example code in the Language Reference fails.

We really need a 1.1 cleanup release, and soon!

Some examples of the bugs:

https://forum.xojo.com/t/61536-webuicontrol-changing-location-is-undone-by-visibility-or-contents-change/56415/2
https://forum.xojo.com/t/61544-webuicontrol-webstyle-value-width-changes-wrong-div/56438/2

These two bugs in conjunction are killer, as they basically prevent me from writing a Responsive design WebPage: size/location changes to controls are lost if you update the control’s content, and you can’t work around these by direct CSS manipulation either.

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2

I think this release is to unblock the log jam to get Android out. I think Geoff P said Android phone is more advanced. Android tablet is needed soon too as Apple iPad UX has slipped in IMHO.

3

Android tablets are dead. They never really even took off in the first place. They have the low end of the market captured but its really awful and most manufacturers are forking and putting their skins on top like Amazon just to make them acceptable. I get the impression that Google are losing interest in Android.

4

I hope they can work with 2 products at the same time, R1.1 with only Web 2.0 fixes and R2 with new features.

5

R1.1 with ANY fixes. R2 with more fixes that came after R1.1 + New features.

6

Not really. Continuous delivery of new features and enhancements. Android TV spreading like fire around the Globe. The Tablet market is really small, not the “Queen’s Jewels” for Android. People are satisfied with an Android Phone + a Windows Laptop, the Tablet between both is just a market niche.

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7

My understanding is that they have a plan in place so that this will be possible moving forward. Nobody was happy about how long 2020r1 took to release, or how fixes and features outside of Web 2.0 were tied to that release.

(But I don’t have definitive information about this.)

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8

Android has slipped way down the roadmap so I’m not sure this is the reason

9

No matter the comments, Android remains the largest market share of all computing platforms, ever.

Sure, tablets are not fulfilling promises some would have hoped for, but between phones with large screens, phablets, and the nascent foldable phones which may be both a phone, and tablet once unfolded, there are more choices by the day.

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10

About Web 1.00 versus Web 2.00, and the plea for maintaining both, the writing is on the wall. Xojo has made a choice to let go of Web 1.00, and embrace Web 2.00, which wit Bootstrap, is much more like a web site than a web app.

Personally, I am NOT going to migrate my apps from Web 1.00 to Web 2.00. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. 2019R3.2 is fine for what I need.

I will no doubt play with Web 2.00 for the pleasure of the discovery, but sometimes, deciding not to waste time and efforts needlessly is the wise thing to do.

I doubt extremely much Xojo has the resources to keep maintaining Web 1.00. Heck, it took them over two quarters to even be able to release Web 2.00. They are stretched thin enough as it is, and yet, they still have Android on their plate, and the redo of iOS…

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11

I would have no problem with that if Web 2 was usable instead of half-baked.

But throwing out something that works while the replacement isn’t functional is … a strange decision. Would have been better to leave Web 1 in and include Web 2 as public beta.

And running two Xojo versions is certainly doable but should not be necessary.

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12

I’m taking 20R1 as a Desktop Fix collection release, with a Web preview release, for people to play while waiting for the real one. That’s a positive way of looking at the issue.

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13

Sure. Ignoring the issues is one way of dealing with it. After all: “ignorance is bliss” … :wink:

14

If read what I write here, “ignoring issues” is something that doesn’t suit me. I am one of the biggest critics here, sometimes I look boring demanding improvements, but yelling at someone does not make them make something complex faster. So I discuss issues, report if necessary, and WAIT. The loop restarts later if I don’t see a solution. I need to GIVE THEM TIME to work on it. When they do something I disagree, I discuss, report if necessary, and WAIT, again. I never “ignore”.

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15

Actually, you do: you ignore what I and others consider poor decision making.

You have the right to your opinion, and how you deal with it, but in MY view Web 1 should still be in there with Web 2 a public beta. Otherwise you get exactly what is happening now: Web 2 getting a poor reputation before it gets a chance to shine, because it is marketed as a replacement for Web 1 before it is ready. All because the releases are PR driven, and not driven by “is it ready?”.

Sure, you (and certainly I) can just wait - but others have projects to deliver and held them back because they waited for a functioning Web 2, or bought or renewed licenses because of Web 2. How do you think they feel when they hear you say “just wait and play with it”? When they are out of the 90 day money back return window and by the time Web 2 is usable they have to buy again to actually use it? I heard of a few, and they are not happy. So I would not dream of ignoring their plight and tell them to just “wait and play with it”.

P.S. And yes, I know, you should never buy something unless it has what you need. Which is why I’m skipping the current OmegaBundle. Great value, maybe next time.

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16

Well, Markus Winter is right: it is so, that xojo 2020r1 is a Beta. We fount many errors in Desktop and much more in Web. So what? We write web applications. We are not even interested in writing Websites. We bought and decided for xojo because of the great Idea of writing Webapps instead of Websites. This aera is ending now I guess. But on the other side I would even live with this. If it would not be totaly unbaken. It is an Idea Capture. But not working at all. Example codes are not running in many cases, the old IDE Errors (Speed in Linux, Copy paste and much more) are not cleared. So what? Witch way xojo customers shall go? It is impossible to hold the decision for xojo and in the same time you get: they leave me alone with all old errors and producing new ones. Well done looks different.

17

I fear Web 2.0 is the new Xojo iOS. Half baked and going to take more than a year to be ready to use. The 20r1 cycle is worrying for the upcoming android and iOS on API2. Resources are stretched thin it seems, I hope the next release is a stability release which focuses on bug fixes and not new platforms.

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18

Xojo used to bring out one big release with new features and then lots of free bug releases. Which meant you ended up with a stable product that was a joy to use.

I predicted that Xojo would become a beta quality product when they started their “Rapid Release Circle” (in 2006 / 7?) because it meant a move to a feature driven release circle, with the pressure to release features whether they are ready or not.

I argued that basic features need to be rock solid (Steve Jobs understood what is meant by “it just works”).

I clamoured for a “Snow Leopard Release”, or a Long Term Support Release.

But I’ve been told that developers want NEW features as evidenced by the popularity of feedback reports - completely ignoring (as I explained) that feature requests by their very nature are cumulative (“Who want’s iOS support? Everyone!”), while bug reports are insular (not everyone is affected by a bug).

I seem to recall a conversation where it was said that Xojo refuses to do releases that are JUST bug fixes as “nobody would buy a release for that”. Maybe. But three bug releases and one new and ready feature release are MUCH better than the mess we have at the moment (and Xojo is not even pretending anymore to be able to keep up with their Rapid Release Circle - so ditch it ffs).

The basic problem is that Xojo needs to “just work” to gain traction - instead its reputation is ruined by premature releases and not fixing problems in a timely manner.

Xojo needs to put emphasis on quality, not new features.

And before the big guys (Google, Microsoft, maybe Apple) really get serious about cross-platform development (they have started, and while they are still behind Xojo they are catching up fast).

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19

As a developer with a good content of web development under my bag, I would not be as severe with Web 2.00.

For those who have some memories about Web 1.00 early release, there was then, too, some rough edges.

If you go through the Web channel for the last few years, you will see an increasing clamor asking for precisely the features Web 2.00 support. Bootstrap support (and that is no piece of cake), and automatic reconnect, among others.

Xojo struggled to deliver Web 2.00 with 2020R1. Was it a bit premature ? I will conceit to that. Frankly, a week ago, I thought FC was still far away. The Testers channel was still full of posts commenting feature requests and bugs.

That is no reason to disavow the very real feast Web 2.00 is, nonetheless. Automatic reconnect itself is critical to support mobile devices. Support for http 1.1 is another strong improvement. Finally, using Bootstrap for the UI is a gigantic step towards contemporary web development. Web 1.00 UI was really showing its age.

Now, should one port applications to the present Web 2.00 ? I think not automatically, unless new features require it. As beautiful as the UI can be, there are too many rough edges, and missing critical features. By the way, it may be prudent for some of us to get a crash course in web design. Bootstrap and CSS are not your usual, old time Desktop metaphor…

I have no intention on the short to mid term to update my current apps to Web 2.00. They are stable, don’t require extraordinary maintenance. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Another “little thing” is that for many reasons, I never elected to run my web apps as standalone. Having been on the web since 1996, and having used Perl for a good long time, I prefer cgi. Upload the program, and Apache will run it as needed, with no fuss with Cron or other artifice. Cgi programs are part of the web files hierarchy, and a coherent part of a web presence.

Web 2.00 being exclusively standalone is not an innocent move. It requires significant efforts to run as peacefully as cgi. I understand the reasons behind that choice, it does not mean I have to like it.

Web 2.00 is like a 6 month old wine: tart, green, not yet palatable. Wait a year or two, and it may become vintage.

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20

Sure, but meanwhile as it matures, at least support the 2019r3x IDE since there’s no moving away from it.

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