That’s the only reasonable response, and Xojo doesn’t penalize you for doing so. You are not required to keep your license up to date.
Since you seem to like using analogies, this one may be a little more accurate:
Customer: I would like to order the steak. About how long will that take?
Waiter: It should be to your table in about 15 minutes.
Customer: Okay, great!
(20 minutes go by)
Customer: Waiter, where’s my steak? You said it would be out in about 15 minutes.
Waiter: Yes sir, but we added some new vegetables (new features) to your meal and the kitchen implemented a new process for cooking steaks (unforeseen technical issues). It has delayed your order but it is on the way.
(Another 20 minutes goes by)
Customer: Waiter, where’s my steak?
Waiter: We had a few more issues in the kitchen that needed to be addressed immediately. We’re not exactly sure when it’ll be ready but rest assured that it is on its way.
(It’s now been about 90 minutes in all)
Waiter: Here you are sir. I believe you ordered the steak?
Customer: (Starving because of the wait, frustrated by the delays, but happy it is finally here) Yes, thank you!
After the steak finally gets to the table, you quickly realize that it is only 80% done (buggy new feature) and some of the vegetables that you are used to seeing on the plate are missing (regressions). 
You’re relatively new to this restaurant and chalk it up as just a fluke. When you decide to come back and order steak again, the exact same thing happens. And again, and again…
Q. At what point do you realize that the waiters’ projections have no credibility?
Q. At what point do you start to lose faith in the kitchen’s ability to get the order right the first time?
Q. At what point do you stop coming back to the restaurant?
Q. Wouldn’t it have been better to not have initially given an estimate of 15 minutes and just said something like it varies depending on how busy the kitchen is? (and keep sending free drinks to the table so they may not notice how long it’s taking)
Q. Wouldn’t it better if the restaurant had a reputation of frequently putting out high quality, delicious meals but at their own pace? Meaning, they don’t give estimates, they just produce great meals.
Q. Wouldn’t it be better if the restaurant checked, double checked, and even triple check the order (if necessary) to ensure that the meals meet a very high standard before being brought out to the table?
Of course I’m trying to inject a little humor. But within every joke, there’s a bit of truth. 
And, of course, I know that there will never be a totally bug-free release or product. But too many of the releases over they years have really missed the mark.
Just one guy’s opinion.
[quote=128888:@Randy Baskin]Q. Wouldn’t it better if the restaurant had a reputation of frequently putting out high quality, delicious meals but at their own pace? Meaning, they don’t give estimates, they just produce great meals.
Q. Wouldn’t it be better if the restaurant checked, double checked, and even triple check the order (if necessary) to ensure that the meals meet a very high standard before being brought out to the table?
And, of course, I know that there will never be a totally bug-free release or product. But too many of the releases over they years have really missed the mark.[/quote]
That’s why I dislike the Rapid Release model.
You gave up a nicely stable yearly release for getting new features a few months earlier at the cost of increasing bugs and regressions.
It never made sense to me, and I feel pretty much vindicated in my assessment by what I have seen over the last 7-8 years.
Best answer I have seen when it comes to this topic.
Don’t eat at MacDonald’s. Fast food is no good 
Well done, Mister Waiter, please
I, totally, agree with you in terms of eating fast food. I very rarely do.
However, as it relates to Xojo, they can only wish to achieve the same reputation and high expectations that MacDonald’s has earned. MacDonald’s has all but perfected the ability to serve the same product millions of times a year and have it look and taste exactly the same and have the same level of quality each and every time. Now I’m not saying that it tastes good or that it is of high quality. But what I am saying is that when a person walks into MacDonald’s, they have a very high expectation that their meal will have the same level of quality, look the same, and have the exact same taste as it did the last time. That is a great reputation to have.
I’ve used Xojo/RS/RB for almost 10 years now. My expectations of any given release, by Xojo, are not very high. My expectation, if the release has one or more major new features, is that the those new features will be very buggy. I also expect that the implementation of those new features will have caused some undetected regression bugs. Another expectation for major new features is that they will not be stable for at least another several releases. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Xojo has set the bar pretty low. Imagine how much more popular it would be if Xojo had even half the reputation for repeatable quality that MacDonald’s has. Wouldn’t it be wonderful? Wouldn’t their revenues soar? I think they need to step back and work on gaining a reputation of repeatable, stable, successful releases.
Personally, for the size of the company, I think they are way too aggressive in the size and scope of the features they try to implement at any given time. I think it would be much better to have a well thought out plan to have smaller, easier to manage and test, incremental releases of new features that ultimately get them to their goal. For instance, was a total rewrite of the IDE necessary? Or could they have made smaller incremental changes that got them to where they are today? If nothing else, the transition to the new IDE would have been much less painful. I hope they really start looking at their processes, procedures, and reputation as people do from the outside looking in and start working on building a better reputation for quality over quantity.
Again, just on guy’s opinion.
My experience with Xojo (Real Basic) dates back to 2001, actually.
Before that, I was using Visual Basic.
I think insisting on bugs may not do justice to the product. Yes, there are bugs in Xojo as there were in Real Basic, as there were in Visual Basic. But from what I can see, a lot of bugs are addressed by Xojo nowadays, and I see constant improvement.
I do not think Xojo is such a low end. My experience for over 12 years has been of a rather stable product, with excellent cross platform abilities that enabled me to produce software in both Windows and Mac OS X versions without extraneous difficulties. Moreover, I do appreciate being able to use Basic instead of having to cope with such abstruse jargonic language as C is.
Although I have been blessed to learn English early on and be comfortable in the dominant language of all things computing, when it comes to coding, I frankly resent the too often contemptuous attitude of the programming luminaries regarding Basic. As if programming in Basic was akin to speak some minority language that, in their ignorance and prejudice, locutors of the majority consider inferior. Like the obnoxious “can’t you speak English like everybody else ?” all too frequently used by people who have no clue in cultural diversity. So in a world where one is summoned to “code in C like everybody else”, Xojo is a precious oasis for the oppressed ancient minority I am a proud member of.
I think it is only legitimate to program in one’s preferred language the now dominant world of iPad and iPhone apps. I am looking forward to Xojo iOS. Because I am sure it will enable me to concentrate on the features my app will bring, rather than the peculiarities of an alien, verbose and adverse coding environment.
Yes, I know the first release will not be bug free. But if anything, Apple Developer forums show that their famed Objective C is extremely far to be free of insects either. Sure, in an ideal world, everything should be rosy and peach. In the real world, I strive everyday for the best apps I can produce, using workarounds as needed, instead of b-tching. What will be most important is not to yell and scream about bugs, but to produce innovative and successful apps. For the time being, pending the arrival of iOS Xojo, I stock on apps ideas. So when the time comes, I’ll be ready 
[quote=128888:@Randy Baskin]Since you seem to like using analogies, this one may be a little more accurate:
Customer: I would like to order the steak. About how long will that take?
Waiter: It should be to your table in about 15 minutes.
Customer: Okay, great!
(20 minutes go by)
Customer: Waiter, where’s my steak? You said it would be out in about 15 minutes.
Waiter: Yes sir, but we added some new vegetables (new features) to your meal and the kitchen implemented a new process for cooking steaks (unforeseen technical issues). It has delayed your order but it is on the way.
(Another 20 minutes goes by)
Customer: Waiter, where’s my steak?
Waiter: We had a few more issues in the kitchen that needed to be addressed immediately. We’re not exactly sure when it’ll be ready but rest assured that it is on its way.
(It’s now been about 90 minutes in all)
Waiter: Here you are sir. I believe you ordered the steak?
Customer: (Starving because of the wait, frustrated by the delays, but happy it is finally here) Yes, thank you!
[/quote]
You missed the part where the gas company came in and said we had to change all the gas appliances & the city requiring us to change everything around to meet fire code.
Not a heck of a lot we can do an sometimes its amazing that the steak got you you in 90 minutes
[quote=128916:@Randy Baskin]I, totally, agree with you in terms of eating fast food. I very rarely do.
However, as it relates to Xojo, they can only wish to achieve the same reputation and high expectations that MacDonald’s has earned. MacDonald’s has all but perfected the ability to serve the same product millions of times a year and have it look and taste exactly the same and have the same level of quality each and every time. Now I’m not saying that it tastes good or that it is of high quality. But what I am saying is that when a person walks into MacDonald’s, they have a very high expectation that their meal will have the same level of quality, look the same, and have the exact same taste as it did the last time. That is a great reputation to have.
I’ve used Xojo/RS/RB for almost 10 years now. My expectations of any given release, by Xojo, are not very high. My expectation, if the release has one or more major new features, is that the those new features will be very buggy. I also expect that the implementation of those new features will have caused some undetected regression bugs. Another expectation for major new features is that they will not be stable for at least another several releases. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Xojo has set the bar pretty low. Imagine how much more popular it would be if Xojo had even half the reputation for repeatable quality that MacDonald’s has. Wouldn’t it be wonderful? Wouldn’t their revenues soar? I think they need to step back and work on gaining a reputation of repeatable, stable, successful releases.
Personally, for the size of the company, I think they are way too aggressive in the size and scope of the features they try to implement at any given time. I think it would be much better to have a well thought out plan to have smaller, easier to manage and test, incremental releases of new features that ultimately get them to their goal. For instance, was a total rewrite of the IDE necessary? Or could they have made smaller incremental changes that got them to where they are today? If nothing else, the transition to the new IDE would have been much less painful. I hope they really start looking at their processes, procedures, and reputation as people do from the outside looking in and start working on building a better reputation for quality over quantity.
Again, just on guy’s opinion.
:)[/quote]
Which should clue you in to the fact that cooking burgers & writing software aren’t in the same realm of complexity.
A burger IS a VERY repeatable process & you can control all of the inputs and equipment and every aspect of the process.
That’s HOW McDonalds became so successful.
Heck I’m not McDonalds at home & I can make the same burger over & over & over - VERY repeatable.
I wish we could for our product.
Apple changes things and implements them often with no notice.
So the tools (OS, API’s etc) change with no notice.
As I mentioned earlier did ANYONE besides us notice that we have to change how Mach-O Files are linked ?
Probably not but its akin to the gas company coming in & saying “Oh by the way we realize you’re in the middle of running a restaurant but hey you have to swap out 100% of your appliances. Oh, and you can’t buy new ones (no one makes them) so you’ll have to MAKE compliant ones. Oh, and there are NO specs on how to make them. But you’ll know if they’re wrong as things will just epode. So
good luck !”
MS and Linux distros do as well.
[quote=128926:@Norman Palardy]Which should clue you in to the fact that cooking burgers & writing software aren’t in the same realm of complexity.
A burger IS a VERY repeatable process & you can control all of the inputs and equipment and every aspect of the process.
That’s HOW McDonalds became so successful.
Heck I’m not McDonalds at home & I can make the same burger over & over & over - VERY repeatable.
I wish we could for our product.[/quote]
Yes, the products that Xojo makes are much different than the products that MacDonald’s make. And, yes, MacDonald’s may have much more control over the variables in the hamburger making process. But MacDonald’s has to repeat the process millions of times a year. Xojo only has to do it, at the least, once a quarter (4 times a year). So with all that said, are you implying that Xojo cannot do anything to improve the quality of your releases? Is everything so out of your control that you cannot find a way to make higher quality releases? All of the code reviews, testing, and release procedures are as finely honed as they can be? The scope and size of the projects are well-defined and given the appropriate amount of time to be completed? People aren’t stretched beyond their abilities to deliver? Yes, you are dependent upon many other things but you do not have to be as dependent as you make it sound. If an Apple or Windows API is changing, you don’t have to start from scratch or immediately implement that change. You can make a release with the caveat that it works with version x.xx of the api’s and in the next release make the appropriate changes to handle the new ones. Sure, there are something that need to be fixed or modified ASAP, but I doubt it as dire and you make it seem. And even if it were, that would be even a better reason to make the scope and size of the incremental changes smaller as less dependent on so many variables.
Do you really wish that you could for your product? That sounds a little defeatist.
I think you’ve taken my post & mistaken it for “defeatist”.
We are tied to our tool & OS vendors in a way that many software products aren’t.
And our customers do expect that we will “keep up” or at least be close.
But when OS & tool vendors don’t disclose enough information to us to make decisions & plans early enough we get caught unaware just like you. MAS rejections of apps using Quicktime was a stunner. No one had a clue when that was going to happen. We all expected it - sometime. But with no advance warning of when it was all we could do to react when it did.
64 bit ? Any idea when Apple is going to clobber 32 bit app submissions to MAS ? No one does.
But we’re pretty sure its going to happen sometime - all the signs are there.
And we have been working on that for quite some time but it requires a new compiler, linker & 64 bit frameworks to make it possible of you guys to write 64 bit apps. Should Apple shut 32 bit app submissions off how long do you think we can say “next release” ? I have a good guess based on what happened with Quicktime.
That was a matter of days.
Case in point : when 2013R3.3 was the current version, all the sudden, with absolutely no warning, Apple started rejecting for the Mac App Store any app that had calls to Quicktime or QT. I was one of the unfortunate souls who had an app rejected that way.
Xojo was able to produce 2014R1 that was clean of the forbidden calls with a stable version, and I was able to successfully submit my app.
I’ll say that is an occasion when Xojo had to react quickly to a sudden change from Apple, and did it quite brilliantly. Numerous developers here depend on the Mac App Store for their livelihood, and am not the only one grateful for their prompt and efficient response.
There is an historical reason (an probably many others I forgot or never knew): the day they wanted to release a product, minutes before the press ann, Apple discovers a major bug and stop talking about that product at newspaper people astonishment.
Since then, they started to be prudent on that.
I personally was hurt by this kind of things: the Ireland manufacture told me ‘you will get it on early March’. I announced it for end of March and i got the product in May. That time, I was waiting to see the products in the warehouse (I personally goes to the warehouse to see the product), then I deliver to Apple press people the article that announce the product availability.
Ann a product far below the day / month / year it will be available is a marketing method to freeze buyings of the concurent products. I strongly dislike this method (either as an employee and as a customer).
Employe gets angry calls;
Customer is angry because (s)he is waiting for the product (and sometimes waste precious time in the wait).
If Xojo does not advertise for a “future new product”, there will not be this kind of question (but others) and no reason to give that answer.
I am unsure of the utility of this conversation.
Here’s a very recent case !
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/apple-demotes-icloud-photo-library-beta/
Not only this, but having to fix this emergency issue does mean scheduled things need to be paused for whatever it takes, if who fixes it was dedicating time to them.
Xojo is always aproachable through various means and has the unusual presence of mind to allow users to get close to them. I have no reason to doubt they’re being candid both when they think they can deliver something at some time and when they tell us they couldn’t (or simply don’t).
The alternative is NOT delivering things on time, because it would be idiotic to think Xojo misses deadlines because they don’t care about them. The alternative is being in the blind as to what future functionality will be, and being surprised when it comes. I much prefer what direction they’re taking, and assume their timelines are ideal scenarios, not promises.
The problem is that this provokes misguided assumptions that are reflected in the “restaurant scenario” above. Xojo delivers exactly what it sells, when you pay for it (which is the equivalent to sitting on a restaurant). A closer scenario would be a restaurant saying they’ll have lobster on may and when you go on may they don’t have lobster yet and explain they couldn’t control production.
I’m so bored now by years of this constant bickering about timelines not being met that I honestly wish Xojo would stop laying their plans for all to see. Users have proven incapable of understanding that this doesn’t amount to a commitment, a sworn oath or an entitlement on their part to demand things be delivered in time. Xojo would do well shutting up and “leaking” future plans strategically, which would make people be interested without feeling misguidedly entitled.
The entitled mentality could be the consequence of kids growing from being rotten brats to adulescents without a clue about real life. Gimme ice cream or I’ll start yelling and screaming 'till you do kind of attitude.
I am always amazed when I see kids in stores deciding for their parents what they should buy. And the parents begging them instead of showing a hint of authority. How could such infants grow into anything but immature adults with a child mentality ? And worse yet, how could these overgrown brats educate their offshoots into anything but other inconsequent egotistic monsters ?
Now tell any of these big kids (as in the movie) what they assume is their birth right is not so simple, and they will enter a rage. Never make any promise to a child. He is not even able to understand.
Well ; instead of starting yet another pet peeve litany, I’ll say this : I am eager to put my hands on Xojo iOS, but am not going to have a fit until it gets here.
I’m keen to try the iOS version of Xojo.
Previously I used Xojo to develop an OSX application for a client. 90% of the development was done using the Windows version of Xojo, with the final 10% (polish and testing) performed on OSX. This was a great and fast development setup for me as the majority of my experience is with Windows.
So… will Xojo for iOS allow (any) development on Windows?
I assume the iOS simulator will be used for testing on OSX, but I guess business logic code could be developed in Xojo on Windows as described above?
Im really keen to get my hands on the IOS version so that I can start getting some practice in, rather than having a massive learning curve when it does arrive.
I’d rather be able to layout , test code, and ‘know where the differences are’ today than go through that all at once in 2 years time.
Who knows, I may not hit any of the bugs… I struck lucky while Cocoa was in beta because the ‘showstoppers’ didn’t affect my needs.
Having spent a year in pain with Corona, I shipped an app but haven’t the heart to go back to that code.
I want to get a feel for this, plan for it, become comfortable with it… because I know the way we will be working with iOS development won’t have a lot to do with how we currently design desktop apps.
AT the moment, I trust Xojo to do a good job.
But I feel a little like hearing that Volkwagen are busy building a flying car, and being told ‘it will be basically like driving your car but a bit different’
Its probably a lot different…
So I agree. Not having a fit, not making (too much) fuss. But watching the kettle boil…
If it is anything like Web Edition, the logic, like methods should be the same. One can paste methods and modules between Desktop and WE. Hopefully it will be the same.
I expect the UI to be vastly different, though.