Renewels + New Features

I just had to say this - but please understand I am completely pro-Xojo and don’t intend to be cynical or contrarian.

I got a notice about the Renewal Sale going on until Wed and since I’m up for renewal I might do it. (Although I’m barely using Xojo, I’m mostly on REAL2011r3 for the PPC et. al. support)

I know it’s hard for a company to resist “making the bait tastier” but the note also says “This is going to be a big year for Xojo… 64-bit support, and iOS coming soon.”

This ALWAYS gets ANY company in a pickle. There’s no promises stated here, technically, but if the teaser is put in a renewal announcement, doesn’t that just set up the expectations of the user? The usual delays WILL happen and even if best case these features become usable in (say) November, that person could have saved their $$$ and renewed next year. Xojo’s renewal system rewards those who wait, since it’s time-based.

As a company who has gotten my rear smeared for future announcements, I would hope that all of us would learn our lesson and let the CURRENT features drive the sales, not the PROMISED ones. I do understand, though, we live in a highly competitive environment, but is this really good in the long run? Xojo should be about the long run - REAL has been around forever, and tomorrow is the next forever.

Xojo has been decidedly late on the important upgrades, but I’m not pinning that on Xojo because everyone is late these days. But since this an industry-wide phenomena, everyone should know that EVERYTHING is “coming soon”.

Some people here renew to fund or contribute to Xojo. I don’t. So, if you are renewing with future features in mind, and perhaps to be constructive I would remind people less familiar with this conundrum that future features, regardless of future projections by anyone, are VAPORWARE - they don’t exist and will never exist until they actually appear. When you sink in money, anything that does exist is not at risk, whereas everything that does not exist is entirely at risk. So don’t complain if you’ve renewed and that something that “was supposed to” appear, doesn’t appear.

Again, I am not trying to be cynical, and I certainly hope that 64-bit and iOS (and lets add Win apps that look current) appear earlier more than later. Go Xojo!

Please note, that your renewal will start at the time the current license expires, not the purchase date.

That is if the purchase occurs BEFORE the expiration. =)

Waiting rewards the user (time is money) because if you can hold off until a feature actually appears (if you are renewing to get a new feature that Xojo offers, or might as well say it - a bug fix), you may have saved yourself a renewal.

Again, it’s been my experience when I’ve brought this up that some renew to “support” or fund or contribute to Xojo. That’s fine. The purpose of my post is perhaps to get some expectations inline with reality. Caveat emptor - but also keep in mind that Xojo is on our side - they want the stuff out more than we do. Just be aware of what you’re paying for and what you truly expect out of the software.

But remember this as well… XOJO is a business… and if they don’t collect enough revenue to stay in business… those future enhancements will never appear… And that is what would happen if everyone were (worst case example) to not renew until feature XYZ was available. Personally I have invested in a license thru 2017, and while I wish the IDE for XOJO was more like the IDE for RealStudio, I trust (so far) that they are in fact listening to their customers and one of the next releases will be IDE centreric, with less on new language features. Adding to the language is great, but not if the workflow process to create the application is still impaired.

(Not directed at Xojo, just theory) When did we ever get the idea that we pay for things BEFORE they exist? That’s not the way the market works. It’s on a business to create the product FIRST, getting seed money is the purpose of venture capitalists etc. NOT the end user.

Now, if a end user wants to be a venture capitalist, that’s on him, but let’s not be confused on what type of economic system we’re running. I don’t agree with such a system IMHO because it works against quality and incentive. There is no better incentive for a company than to make a high quality product in a timely fashion and THEN benefit from it. Giving the benefit BEFORE the product exists can only diminish the incentive. That’s human nature, proved time and time and time again.

Especially in terms of time. A good example is construction. A proper bid and contract includes penalties for a delayed time of completion, or in the positive light, bonuses for early completion. Giving money away with no risk is just asking for problems. Another good example, on the negative end, is Time is running out on software companies who are addicted to being so high in demand that they do a poor job. Pretty soon the approval rating of a software engineer will be as high as Congress. Do we really want the “conventional wisdom” of a software guy to be poor quality, bad service - like plumbers?

The solution is the old way, the American way. Build your mousetrap, THEN sell it. There are many ways to get capital if you need it, but the worst way is on the backs of your user base, Because if you fail, you’ll be penalized most severely, whereas the other ways understand the risks - it’s built in to the system.

(Again, this is now theory, not pointed toward Xojo)

A prefect case here pertaining to your damned if you do and your damned if you don’t. People complain when Xojo doesn’t talk about coming features and people complain when they do. I, for one, feel sorry for the Xojo folks.

Garth, I know you will consider me as being some kind of weirdo…but, I have purchased every version of this companies product since version 1.1 when it was named RealBASIC. And here is what makes me even weirder…I do not use it to make money. I use it because it allows me to easily write software for my Mac and occasionally write software for a Windows machine of a friend or family member. I make these purchases because I like the product and I like the company and I wish to see them continue. You have your way of looking at things and I have mine.

I completely agree. However when I asked the question in another post about the roadmap for updates to the IDE I was quickly swatted down - “we don’t announce what we are doing”, “we don’t do roadmaps” Now granted I used the word “Roadmap” in my post which was a major mistake on my part, but I was asking about a few very specific issues in the IDE. But, it quickly turned in to a philosophical discussion on roadmaps rather than my specific questions.

But they do discuss future features in a renewal offer and even discuss a timeline:
This is going to be a big year for Xojo - we have Xojo Cloud, for one-click application hosting, 64-bit support, and iOS coming soon. “64 Bit”, “Xojo Cloud” and the reference that " Is this not a forward looking “Roadmap”

Don’t get me wrong, I love Xojo, but the message about future product features seems a bit “disjointed”, especially when saying we don’t do roadmaps, yet they announced a specific timeline for Xojo Cloud last year, which didn’t make it. Quite frankly I would have been upset if I had purchased the license and it expired prior to the release of Xojo Cloud.

Anyway that’s my opinion… and you know what opinions are like…

Onward and upward!

I think it is a great deal: 25% off is huge when you have a Pro license - I will do the renewal today or tomorrow for sure.

And yes, I know it will not guarantee me 64bit and/or iOS support will happen this year but it will also not hold me to catch on with this great deal.

I guess my brain has fossilized into a somewhat different mindset. When I first started in writing software (for the original Apple ][ ) much of the software available was shareware - and the authors often asked that you paid what you thought the software was worth. As the industry developed into developers requesting specific amounts I found that mindset stuck between my ears.

Today, I still pay for software based on the value I put on it but also take into account what the creators of the software are asking. If they are asking for more than I feel it is worth, or to put it another way, if I feel that there isn’t a good return on the investment, I just don’t buy it - and I faithfully won’t use it. Fair is fair.

Never in my evaluation of a software package have I based paying for it on functions and features that MAY be coming. If it can’t do what I need for it to do now, I’ll go grab a beer and head for the hills until it can do what I need - or find something else that suits the purpose. Since I don’t know what I will be doing in the future, how can I worry about a feature that they may or may not deliver when I may or may not need it? If it is there when I need it, fine. If not, well other options exist. It comes down to selecting the right tool for the job. It’s not the nail’s fault that all you have is a screwdriver.

And as for the current renewal special offer, I won’t be taking advantage of it since my current license doesn’t expire until October 2015 and that’s long enough. :slight_smile:

Regardless of how much complaints hurt the Xojo team, I really think they should at least give you a free upgrade to the first release of Xojo with all of these promised features. It is misleading advertising without a doubt, if the case. They should keep the marketing separate and SPECIFICALLY state that they cannot guarantee that this will be available if the license expires before these features are available.

I would let Xojo off, as long as they give you a free upgrade if you make a complaint about this.

[quote=60278:@Oliver Scott-Brown]Regardless of how much complaints hurt the Xojo team, I really think they should at least give you a free upgrade to the first release of Xojo with all of these promised features. It is misleading advertising without a doubt, if the case. They should keep the marketing separate and SPECIFICALLY state that they cannot guarantee that this will be available if the license expires before these features are available.

I would let Xojo off, as long as they give you a free upgrade if you make a complaint about this.[/quote]
*Ignore ‘if the case’

How could it possibly be misleading if you can try almost every aspect of the environment for an unlimited time before deciding to purchase? If Xojo doesn’t have a feature you need, or otherwise doesn’t meet your needs, you can know long before you have to commit any cash to it. If you want it to be feature-complete before you pay, wait for it to be feature-complete before you pay. Meanwhile, you could spend years developing your apps until they are perfect without spending a cent.

If you decide to purchase anyway, it means that the license has adequate value for you today, and it doesn’t matter what tomorrow might or might not bring. Someone saying they were “mislead” under these circumstances is a hard sell.

This idea allowed countless books and magazines to come to life. It’s called ‘publishing on subscription’.

If you want to wait and see what the future holds, wait and see. Unlike some tool vendors there is no penalty with letting your Xojo license expire. We do not force you to “get current” when you start it back up.

But if you rely on Xojo and want to save a few bucks, renewing now can save you some money. I wrote a quick Xojo app to do the calculations for you:

Xojo Pro renewal: Was $495, now $371.25. Save $123.75!
Xojo Web renewal: Was $200, now $150. Save $50!
Xojo Desktop renewal: Was $150, now $112.50. Save $37.50!
Xojo Database renewal: Was $150, now $112.50. Save $37.50!
Xojo Console renewal: Was $150, now $112.50. Save $37.50!

Remember that Dana is in Marketing, whereas Norman is in Engineering. That’s the difference in message you’re hearing. Marketing can say whatever they want. They don’t have to deliver. (And who really takes any Marketing claims about future products seriously?)

I didn’t even consider the IOS or 64bit info when I looked at the renewal offer. Marketing lives in a different world than developers. The only thing that caught my eye was the 25% discount. I figure that I will be using XOJO for at least another couple of years and the upgrade price seems reasonable, all things considered. I wish I could have bought two more years of upgrades for the 25% off.

I just dropped a PHP development environment that I have been using for a couple of years because the yearly subscription just jumped from $399 a year to $699, so the decision to purchase another year of XOJO was easy.

I would just consider the 25% discount folks. iOS may well be delivered this year but it is more than likely to be under a separate license so even if you have a valid licence when it is released I doubt any licence you buy today will let you build for iOS without additional cost.

What can I say? My license comes up for renewal in May and I was intending to renew it so it makes sense to take advantage of the discount offer now rather than wait until May and pay the regular price then.

The Law.

I find the email very misleading. Renewing is not a problem, in fact I’ll be taking up the offer, however because the email states that Xojo is introducing iOS, Cloud, etc, I would expect that my renewal WILL include these extra features as it’s contained within the promotional email, but I know from reading other threads that iOS support will not be included in any version of Xojo.

I think the email should not have stated these advancements at all.