Kudos to Geoff and Xojo

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Juyoun_Park

Its about not my unique issues alone, and we all know its not. Shifting focus on that which could be easy dismissed, disassembled, disregarded or rendered trivial, at the expense of, or in an attempt to avoid critical, commonly experienced and documented or undeniable issues seems like a classic straw-man, not trying to be rude… but it it does.

But you see it should be. We are each in an excellent position to speak about the specific issues we have but we are in no position whatsoever to speak accurately on the issues the community as a whole has. If each user who has issues talks about what those issues are, we can then begin to see trends. This is why we have Feedback and why we encourage searching before entering a new report. We want to know how many people are facing a specific issue. Because in the end, we have to prioritize and we do so based upon the impact any particular case is having.

You have now mentioned some specifics and that’s helpful. Yes, I agree there are issues on Linux. With all the different distros it can be challenging for us to be able to reproduce some of the issues reported on Linux. However, once we have enough information to be able to reproduce them, fixing them is usually not difficult.

So when you report bugs, please make sure to provide steps to reproduce and a clear and concise summary so that others can easily find your report as well. This helps to avoid duplicate reports which then split up the vote.

[Juyoun_Park]

Fair enough, but that is the result I got when pressing that button.

[AlbertoD]

@Juyoun_Park

Wow…

Summarize this topic? = All critical posts removed?

I guess I have my answer then…

It is a forum feature that the summarize only shows most liked answers. Critical posts are not shown on that summary because they are not liked. Is not some dark Xojo doing to not show critical comments.

Edit: Discourse features | Discourse - Civilized Discussion

[Dana_Brown]

Thanks for the clarification Alberto, I had not noticed the button but you are correct. That is from the forum software not set by us.

[Juyoun_Park]

So addressing this directly, without derailment (unintentionally or otherwise), in a clear and concise manner, publicly, so that action can be predicated on it is out of the question?

1) Acknowledgement that customer support and debugging needs will become the short term and primary focus for Xojo until the majority of customers are satisfied with the functionality of the CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE. (Major debugging and quality control pass) with all other new features and underdeveloped targets being paused until DESKTOP, IDE and WEB are solid performers.

2) A public commitment to reasonable timeframe to accomplish this quality control pass (6-12 months) with Q/A and bug fixes released on a rolling, hotfix or short periodic basis. (I am ready to renew right now, but not for another 12 months of development of new gizmos and semi functional targets while CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE continue to languish in perpetuity.

Simply put, (and I do appreciate your engagement here) is there any reason NOT to consider the following in light of the wave of discontent over quality control? If we ALL post into this forum en mass in support of this then will it be addressed and considered?

It is not unreasonable to have the above addressed and considered, it is not asking for a moonshot… It is simply requesting that the product be brought up to the specification and capabilities it was designed to and advertised, and sold to perform at. This will deliver what was purchased and restore confidence in the brand…

I am no expert, nor CEO, nor posses the insider confidential data, I stipulate those limitations, and others may have far better suggestions for remedies than I. But just acknowledging that there is a serious need for QA and that a deliberate and intensive effort was forthcoming would put a lot of people at ease.

Its not asking for more than what was already sold, and paid for. Why is this so impossible to get through, core functions need to be flawless, new features can break, nothing is perfect, we understand.

If you can forgive the analogy, Xojo has literally been applying new exterior paint styles, new interior upholstery configurations, different avionics sets, new wingtip extended tanks, invented a all new type of landing gear and A.I. operated autopilot modes… all commendable accomplishments, but the basic air frame and power-plants are STILL NOT airworthy under all required conditions, and fewer and fewer customers are willing to risk getting inside.

[Juyoun_Park]

Again, fair enough, I acknowledge it to be an innocent feature of the forum outside of Xojo’s influence and that I am mistaken…

-It still does NOT address the main issues at hand: (please see below)

Can you please simply address the following possibilities?:

1. Acknowledgement that customer support and debugging needs will become the short term and primary focus for Xojo until the majority of customers are satisfied with the functionality of the CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE. (Major debugging and quality control pass) with all other new features and underdeveloped targets being paused until DESKTOP, IDE and WEB are solid performers.

2. A public commitment to reasonable timeframe to accomplish this quality control pass (6-12 months) with Q/A and bug fixes released on a rolling, hotfix or short periodic basis. (I am ready to renew right now, but not for another 12 months of development of new gizmos and semi functional targets while CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE continue to languish in perpetuity.

A public vote (or questionare) could easily be taken to see if its what the paying customers need and demand, or if I am simply a crazy, ungrateful complainer who hates XOJO.

A public survey should be official, have official support and should be done here, ON THIS FORUM. Its a simple matter to put all this discontent to rest, publicly, for and on the record and for the benefit of ALL involved.

[Markus_Winter]

The funny thing about “kudos” is that Xojo is actually getting a LOT of kudos when it is compared with other desktop cross-platform tools.

And there are blog posts and threads that demonstrate exactly that - except HERE … because you are not allowed to bring up other tools or link to other places.

IT is a sad state of affairs that the desktop gets so little attention - and others are starting to muscle in, so Xojo better get their act together.

Web 2 and especially Xojo for iOS however are universally derided, both here and elsewhere.

[Thorsten_Stueker]

The help issue is based on the known and documented libwebkit 3 error but the problem is that alleine it is falling back to it. Therefore should be an example project help database viewer what would also show database ability of xojo. We where not writing it on xojo so I don’t think you can reach this out but I know it could be done within two days . Would be the solution for the next 100 years

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Juyoun_Park

Simply put, (and I do appreciate your engagement here) is there any reason NOT to consider the following in light of the wave of discontent over quality control? If we ALL post into this forum en mass in support of this then will it be addressed and considered?

Yes, there is. We have a system for reporting bugs and requesting features and this forum is not it. The majority of Xojo users don’t use this forum. So to address the issues provided only by those on the forum would be to ignore the majority of Xojo users. The Feedback app is the system we use to help us determine which cases will provide the greatest benefit to our users. The popularity of a case in Feedback is not the only criterion of course but it’s certainly an important one. Nevertheless we do sometimes hear about bugs that are initially reported on the forum (perhaps because the user isn’t sure it’s a bug and they want some confirmation) and it’s obvious that it’s going to impact a lot of people so we don’t wait for many users to report it.

And yes, I realize that the Feedback app does not work very well on Linux. We are working on switching over to a web-based version of it in part so that Linux users can have a better experience.

Regarding the aircraft analogy, despite the complaints you hear on the forum, the majority of Xojo users aren’t constantly running into showstopping bugs. When they do, they contact us but most are not. That doesn’t mean that the complaints you read on the forum are not legitimate but they only represent a small subset of the entire Xojo userbase. If Xojo were indeed as unstable as you suggest, our tech support would be overwhelmed and unable to keep up.

I realize you are using Xojo on Linux and that’s not as good an experience as on macOS or Windows. The plethora of Linux distributions makes that challenging but I do agree with you that we should address the annoying issues such as the typing speed, cut/paste, and whatever is causing the IDE to require restarting. The biggest problem with all of these is that they are challenging for us to reproduce. Once we can reproduce them, they are usually easy to fix.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Markus_Winter

And there are blog posts and threads that demonstrate exactly that - except HERE … because you are not allowed to bring up other tools or link to other places.

This is a Xojo support forum, not a general development tools forum. There are plenty of other places to discuss other development tools.

[Markus_Winter]

@Geoff_Perlman

The majority of Xojo users don’t use this forum.

Neither do they use feedback.

So to address the issues provided only by those on the forum would be to ignore the majority of Xojo users.

Ever heard of proportional representation? Statistic sampling?

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Markus_Winter

Neither do they use feedback.

They do if they want us to know about any issues they have experienced. And it’s hardly hidden as there’s a Feedback button nearly dead-center in the middle of the IDE toolbar.

[Markus_Winter]

So you are saying you have many more feedback users than forum users?

[Geoff_Perlman]

I have not run the numbers lately but even amongst forum users, the majority read the forum but do not post.

Regardless, Feedback is the system we use for tracking bug reports and feature requests, it’s far more comprehensive than using the forum for that purpose and is even easier to find given, as I said before, there’s a button in the middle of the IDE toolbar.

This is a forum. It’s for discussion, not bug tracking.

[Juyoun_Park]

Yes, there is. We have a system for reporting bugs and requesting features and this forum is not it. The majority of Xojo users don’t use this forum. So to address the issues provided only by those on the forum would be to ignore the majority of Xojo users.

Fair enough, please raise that question in feedback for all to see and vote with their points. I would do so myself but it does not work on my computer. Make a major 6-12 month exclusive Desktop and Web bug killing overhaul a possibility for people to vote on and see what the customers say.

[Geoff_Perlman]

We don’t need to do that as Feedback users are already telling us what is important to them by reporting issues and voting on them.

[Juyoun_Park]

Feedback is the place to get the remedy, file a report…

• OK, but feedback does not work on any of my computers. Lets pose a question about getting things (like feedback ) fixed once and for all… Lets use feedback for a vote as you said.

No need to post THAT on feedback, feedback is how all our customers tell what is important to them…

Lets please mark your post as the official Xojo answer then.… ownership, its all yours… you own it, that absolutely slaps the life out of my hope to ever get a stable release.

[Markus_Winter]

@Geoff_Perlman

I have not run the numbers lately but even amongst forum users, the majority read the forum but do not post.

Which brings us straight back to proportional representation and statistical sampling.

You are ASSUMING that people who do not read the forums are happy with Xojo.

You are ASSUMING that people who do not post are all happy campers.

You are ASSUMING that people who do use the forums are NOT a representative sample of Xojo users.

And you use those ASSUMPTIONS to block valid criticism.

Regardless, Feedback is the system we use for tracking bug reports and feature requests

And I pointed out the inherent problems with feedback years ago. The most pertinent being that by their very nature bug reports are solitary (I might be affected by a database bug, but you don’t use databases and therefore are not), while feature requests are cumulative (“Who wants iOS? EVERYONE!”).

So that old argument that people want feature requests over bug fixes is a false deduction. If you are affected by a showstopper bug, or not even using the new features, then you definitely want the bug fix. But you won’t see that the way feedback operates. So people leave. And those are people who you REALLY should be trying HARD to keep.

This is a forum. It’s for discussion, not bug tracking.

And the discussion suggested a vote which seems entirely appropriate.

We don’t need to do that as Feedback users are already telling us what is important to them by reporting issues and voting on them.

Umm, you ARE aware that a lot of people (me included) have given up on even posting feedback as nothing ever seems to get fixed?

Maybe another poll would be advisable?

[Jon_Ogden]

@Geoff_Perlman

We don’t need to do that as Feedback users are already telling us what is important to them by reporting issues and voting on them.

I agree with this Geoff but I also disagree. Our discussion last week was predicated upon me updating a feature request from 2014. I have so many bugs reported in feedback that I don’t think they will ever get fixed. Sure some are the oddball crashes. But I had one from a month or so ago where the IDE was crashing for some odd reason. Turns out it was due to something I put wrong in my project. I even had discussions with Robin about it in the case. I figured out exactly what was causing my problem. I put an example project in there and the exact steps. Since then nothing.

So feedback is a place where a lot of it goes and dies.

And this is from the guy praising you and your team.

[Geoff_Perlman]

@Juyoun_Park

OK, but feedback does not work on any of my computers. Lets pose a question about getting things (like feedback ) fixed once and for all… Lets use feedback for a vote as you said.

That is already in the works. As I mentioned, we have a web-based version of Feedback in the works.