Again you’re right… Another topic created …
Erwin,
The idea of automatic conversion of Web1.0 project to Web2.0 scares me. I use some custom controls created by a user in the community named “WebCustomControls.” This is a fairly large library written mainly in JavaScript.
How would Xojo convert al of those? It would be a mess! Talk about complaints with bugs. Sheesh. And honestly I want to move away from those controls because the author isn’t supporting them any more.
I want to migrate to the newer controls in Web2.
Web1.0 had a lot of problems. Embedded ContainerControls don’t fire their open events. Canvases don’t update quickly and more. Having been with Web1.0 since the beginning I have seen it all. So I welcome Web2. I can convert my project when I want.
I would rather have Xojo spending time getting other bugs/issues fixed and releasing API2 for iOS than a conversion program that would probably create as much work for me or more as me doing it myself.
A simple web app may be easy to convert. But more complex ones - no thank you.
For desktop I am gradually starting to use API2. As long as Xojo allows me to run my existing code base on API1, it’s not a big deal to switch over as I go and as I need to.
It was disruptive when Apple removed the floppy drive. Then the CD drive. Does anyone miss them?
There were sure bowls of complaints at the time…
Do you miss the 8-track you used to have in your car (for those old enough to remember the wonderful ker-chunk right in the middle of a song)?
Things change.
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Do you have also 3 full time programmers putting all there time in web 1.0 projects over the last 3 years??
We running a cloud solution for thousands of healthcare dossiers…
We having calculation site for a large multinational calculating filtering techniques all around the world) .
We have tools for controlling parking terminals .
We have tools for monitoring people …
al based on web 1.0 all, don’t you think that we already discovered that web 1.0 has problems??
As I can remember reading, you are having problems with api 2.0 and IOS …
And now you telling me that you wishing they put some there time in to it …
So we are on exact the same kind of page… (I don’t know if my page is larger then yours (I don’t know you).
If Geoff tells me : Sorry we missed some points during development of web 2.0. and now we don’t have a reasonable conversion…
.
I will pray (reversed) for the next 1 hour 
…( Ok the next 24 hours)
and take some deep breaths and start working …
But until now … the only thing I hear is … nothing or references to open doors…
Giving me the feeling that I’m the fool over here.
A rough calculation tells me that this cost me around (133k euro) .
I’m paying 3 pro licenses where a large group of users only update once a couple of years …
I think I have the right for a decent explanation what happened in web 2.0 project and getting some reassurance this will not happen again…
Keep in mind I’m not the only one who is having this problem … I speak to a couple of heavy users where some all ready quit and some are on the point of… It’s not my intention to quit …
Kind regards,
Erwin
PS: and no … I don’t wanna phone call from Geoff 
(sorry needed to write that)
PS2:: Sorry Anthony 
… I have asked Geoff the questions on a other thread … But the initiator of this thread is responding …
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Uh API2.0 for iOS is not out yet.
No. I am a single person business who does this part time. I am supporting multiple apps for some significant clients as well as a full time job that has nothing to do with programming. I wish I had three people working for me. That would make life easier/faster!
So for me to stop and spend my time completely re-working my web app is a huge deal. It means I can’t move forward on other developments. But I realize it is the cost of doing business. It’s life.
I don’t agree with everything Xojo has done or will do. That would be boring. It’s Geoff’s business and he has a different perspective than any of us. I trust that he has the insight to make things happen in the way best for HIS company. If it conflicts with what’s best for my company then I will make decisions accordingly. But that’s just life and business.
Just wanted to add my thanks to Geoff and the team at Xojo - although I’m new to the party so don’t carry the legacy code baggage some will have , I have to say I love this product and the direction it is going in. Yes Web2.0 is a little rough around the edges, mainly the exposure of the underlying style elements, but the ability to create cross platform and Web apps has been a game changer for me in my business - I have won contracts where I would have had no chance with my other tool of choice FileMaker.
Excited to see what is coming down the track.
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I am facing a similar dilemma in a different web framework that I chose instead of Web 1.0 some years ago. They recently did a very radical redesign for many of the same reasons behind Web 2.0 and it looks like learning an entirely new language. At least with Xojo, a lot of your business logic will continue to function. Not so much with the other framework.
The improvements with Web 2.0 has me seriously entertaining the idea that if I have to rewrite everything, I might as well do it in Xojo.
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There a simply way too many platforms that they are trying to support with a small staff. It’s not realistic but it is a problem of their own making. Many of the platforms are half-baked: iOS and I expect Android will be a beta release at best.
They need two platforms: Desktop and Web. Especially now that Web framework is being totally rewritten and is a massive project.
There are already tons of options out there for iOS and Android that work, also true of raspberry. They’re too late to the game on those and obtaining market share with a half-baked product against mature products with a 10 year history is going to be tough.
As much as I love Xojo, the truth is resources could have been spent better.
Being a jack of all trades and master of none is a losing proposition IMHO.
Anyway, that’s my thoughts, for what it is worth.
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The users can share in the blame for that. IIRC iOS and Android were #1 feature requests for years.
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You’re assuming that the entire team is skilled at developing the underpinnings of each platform. That’s not the case. While there’s some overlap, the team is pretty diverse. It would therefore not be useful to turn all of their attention to one platform because they don’t have the knowledge of that platform. Having the skills to develop iOS or Windows frameworks is of no help with the web framework.
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I do not think users wanted what Xojo offers for iOS…
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100% agree on that, but it’s ultimately up to the company if they can actually deliver what the customer needs at the customer’s level of expectations.
That’s like asking Tesla to produce a less expensive model, then having Elon roll out a wooden carriage. Um, no, that is not what the customer was expecting.
Again, Xojo is a great product and what I’ve been able to create with it has paid for itself a million times over, but I do get concerned when I see these threads.
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I get that, and I experience that in my business too. I guess the argument would be instead of producing for so many platforms because it matches your teams diversity maybe think of getting the team up to speed so you can focus more resources on a single goal.
I cannot believe that someone who has the intelligence and expertise in developing a platform for iOS could not contribute to WEB. It is different, but not like a total domain shift - Barber >>> to Brain Surgeon. It may take them six months, but now you have double the resources on that project. Finish it to full expectations then move to the next. You’d also reduce your dependency on any one employee, which is good in any business.
I’m not trying to tell you how to run your business, because you can’t argue with success and Xojo has been around for a long time so you must be doing something right. I am just providing some input and user perspective. Furthermore, I appreciate you taking the time to read user comments and actually respond, which is refreshing in today’s marketplace.
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That is entirely reasonable.
That being the case however does not deal with fixing the current state of Xojo, nor provide a actual plan to bring it back to high reliability ind the IDE, Desktop and web targets.
Clearly MANY of the customers have expressed serious issues with the state of the core features of the product, there are users here who have reported hundreds of bugs on said core features and many are looking for leadership to take the helm, acknowledge the deficiencies (however they came to be, who cares) and put forth a realistic and honest plan to get the CORE DESKTOP API, IDE and WEB at least where it performs well for the vast majority of PRO customers.
I dont presume to speak for anybody else, I am not looking for platitudes, excuses, targets of blame, apologies, or anything else other than:
1) Acknowledgement that customer support and debugging needs will become the short term and primary focus for Xojo until the majority of customers are satisfied with the functionality of the CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE. (Major debugging and quality control pass) with all other new features and underdeveloped targets being paused until DESKTOP, IDE and WEB are solid performers.
2) A public commitment to reasonable timeframe to accomplish this quality control pass (6-12 months) with Q/A and bug fixes released on a rolling, hotfix or short periodic basis. (I am ready to renew right now, but not for another 12 months of development of new gizmos and semi functional targets while CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE continue to languish in perpetuity.
It is not unreasonable at all to request this of XOJO Inc at this point. YES its YOUR SHIP, and it WILL SINK unless CORRECTIVE ACTION (not damage control) to restore faith and trust is taken. We dont want hate this product, we dont want to see it flounder or die…
We need a major QA pass ABOVE ALL ELSE
IF YOU ARE WILLING TO GO WERE THE EVIDENCE IS (EGO ASIDE), AND ARE HONESTLY COMMITTED TO THE TRUTH AND PROVIDING A QUALITY PRODUCT, THEN PUT IT TO A VOTE FROM PAYING CUSTOMERS AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY
PLEASE, I BEG YOU.
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Everything has an opportunity cost. For example, if an engineer spends 6 months getting up to speed on an unfamiliar platform, that’s 6 months he or she was not spending very efficiently fixing bugs or adding features on the platform they are an expert at. To use the brain surgeon analogy, a brain surgeon could take the time to learn abdominal surgery so he or she could then do either. But generally speaking, it’s not worth it because there’s plenty of brain surgery that needs doing.
Remember that if the engineer (for example) that does most of the Windows work stops doing that to learn how to contribute to the web framework, then Windows bug fixes and features stop happening.
I’m sure you have encountered things like this in your own business. Resource allocation is not an easy thing. However, I will say this: while we do hear some people here on the forum complaining about converting their web apps, few seem to be providing specifics. When they do, we accommodate. We have added the Pressed event to the WebCanvas for 1.1 and coordinates for the WebImageViewer.Pressed event for example. In customer service and tech support we are not hearing from customers saying that they can’t use 2020r1. I’m not trying to belittle the experience of any one individual but instead provide some perspective.
I’ve heard a few people here on the forum say that Web 2.0 is not up to par with Web 1.0 but when I ask them what features are missing that prevent them from moving forward, I get no response. If anyone has something specific that prevents them from moving forward, let us know and we will see what can be done. The best thing is to create a Feedback case and then bring that case to our attention.
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So can you tell me what specifics issues you’re having? I hear people talk in generalities but not specifics. What specific issues are preventing you from delivering solutions? That information would provide some much needed context.
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I can tell you: most annoying is the ide speed especially under Linux and the ide copy and paste problem. Beside this it is time to get rid of the dependency of libwebkit3 Gil under Debian based Linux cause there is no release candidate anymore, it’s deprecated. This is also the incident occurs with the not accessible offline help. So there are a few points in the use.
Rewriting costs time but for web2.0 I would really like to have styles not erased when opening a project cause I have tons of styles in all projects and xojo is silently forgetting about in xojo 2020.
I would really appreciate correct Linux llvm but it will only be there when llvm was changing. That’s a part you can not change, I know but it is still needed for being cross Plattform.
I am sorry but if I would have to write what I am missing for IOS I would write 500 lines. The other way around: what is not missed. Beginning with tablet support, ending with api2 for iOS. And still iOS development under Linux what is really missed.
Android? Nothing to say cause it is not ready. In my view it will catch nobody cause there are tons of tools which can do it.
Why I am using xojo? For Web Development it is really nice. Or it was. When changing to Web 2.0 I have to work 50% of the app newly. The logic lays in the events which are not running anymore. Most of it is to reuse but still. None of the elements has the same measurements, the site design needs also complete rework and because everything works slightly different the usability has to be worked out newly. But still, there is no alternative for developing Webapps running natively like xojo.
By the way I really miss the cgi generation.
So if I look on it I guess it would be for me as the rest web. And maybe Desktop. But there has to be another strategy in my view. And yes I know about the needs of time sharing of employees for different projects. If it will become to much for one, hire more it is the only solution
Its about not my unique issues alone, and we all know its not. Shifting focus on that which could be easy dismissed, disassembled, disregarded or rendered trivial, at the expense of, or in an attempt to avoid critical, commonly experienced and documented or undeniable issues seems like a classic straw-man, not trying to be rude… but it it does.
I am not the only one who holds this position, calling out my issues alone, and ignoring the hundreds of multi-year open tickets, departing customers, official censorship (and customers needing to circumvent it), consistent complaints and open revolt on the forum, on-our-knees-pleas, negative independent reviews and plug-in developers having to publicly raise the exact same issues, risking their privileged and insider access… all are indicators that a change is absolutely required. Even if I had NO PROBLEMS AT ALL, ALL THE ABOVE INDICATORS STILL STAND ON THEIR OWN.
To be clear, I stopped filing ANY reports years ago, after seeing a critical bug in LINUX threading get ignored for years, it became clear that I needed to proceed as if I had no official support, or pay a third party.
My main issue stems from the countless man-hours wasted in workarounds (THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE R.A.D.) to known but ignored issues in the API, to the time lost on the absolutely…dog…slow…typing…speed…of…the…IDE…and… spurious cccccharacter repeats when typing faster than the XOJO required data entry speed of <10 words per min without Xojo Mandatory Restarts every hour. Also remote debugging on LINUX, good luck with that, I could always use the IDE directly on LINUX if I was into masochism and self flagellation.
Yes, I get by using Xojo, but its absolutely abysmal and needs major debugging work. To deny this is with a straight face in opposition to all the mounting evidence to the contrary seems utterly disconnected or dishonest.
Case in point, I opened my latest build (working very well in 2017r3) and in 2020 its pegged at 100% cpu, throughput is 10% of normal. I spent along time to create helper process apps, a controller, a shared memory MPI (to overcome threading bug in LINUX, for me, a monumental workaround) and lots of performance tuning for a custom UDP protocol… It finally works well… but if I migrate to 2020 it all turns to excrement… Am I to spend more months to discover what changed under the hood? Why? That’s just one small example from one single user.
The problem is not about me, please address the following as concerns or possible solutions and the need to know exactly where we stand on QA moving forward. Our business are tied to XOJO for our livelihood, I for one need to know that I will not loose my time investment in XOJO. As it is trending, that seems highly likely.
Can you please simply address the following possibilities?:
1) Acknowledgement that customer support and debugging needs will become the short term and primary focus for Xojo until the majority of customers are satisfied with the functionality of the CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE. (Major debugging and quality control pass) with all other new features and underdeveloped targets being paused until DESKTOP, IDE and WEB are solid performers.
2) A public commitment to reasonable timeframe to accomplish this quality control pass (6-12 months) with Q/A and bug fixes released on a rolling, hotfix or short periodic basis. (I am ready to renew right now, but not for another 12 months of development of new gizmos and semi functional targets while CORE DESKTOP, WEB and IDE continue to languish in perpetuity.
A public vote (or questionare) could easily be taken to see if its what the paying customers need and demand, or if I am simply a crazy, ungrateful complainer who hates XOJO.
A public survey should be official, have official support and should be done here, ON THIS FORUM. Its a simple matter to put all this discontent to rest, publicly, for and on the record and for the benefit of ALL involved.
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Wow…
Summarize this topic? = All critical posts removed?
I guess I have my answer then…
We do numerous surveys throughout the year to collect Feedback. We also do an annual survey every year which will be coming out soon. We collect a lot of information to help us understand issues people are running into as well as what features are important to them. Information like that is very important to us and the more specific responses are the better, especially if Feedback cases are provided.
If you are experiencing issues, you should report them in Feedback. If we get a lot of people having the same issue in Feedback, we take that very seriously. If you’re stuck you can always reach us via Customer Service or Technical Support, we want to help!
Not sure what you mean, I see your posts?
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