Feedback 2018r1

Seeing more and more of such strange decisions made within Xojo, i am pretty sure Hal is not the only one preparing the Xojo exit…

Such a reply? Yes - at least for Swiss mentality :wink:
Xojo’s decision? Not dumb…
I somehow can even faintly imagine why someone would think about doing it like this. However, it obviously isn’t in Xojo’s customers best interest. That’s what we all have made very clear. I’m sure Xojo has heard (well, read). So it’s up to them to re-consider that decision. Maybe their customers best interest is in their interest, too. I for one hope and believe so.

The decision speaks to me of fear. Xojo has promised features and they don’t deliver. What is voting for if not to show a preference? And this also means to be able to see the result. As it is Feedback becomes even more a black hole than it was before.

The Xojo team should be aware of the fact many of their customers are very loyal developers spending a lot of time to help making Xojo beter by investigating and reporting issues. What we would like to get in return is getting informed about progress being made, or at least the feeling really been taken seriously. The quality of Feedback as an application was not fantastic, is my opinion. The withdrawal of features hits the willingness for reporting at all, I am afraid.
Without the help of passionate customers, Xojo would have been nothing.

I think the current Feedback app is significantly less useful than before.
@Xojo: Please bring back the removed functions.

This is so frustrating!
I’m starting to believe that Xojo is losing their Mojo.
The fact that the old Feedback doesn’t work anymore makes it even more frustrating. :frowning:

It’s a new day, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m not bothered about losing access to the shared Top Cases, I can see how that could cause them trouble and I can see how they’d want to clean that up. So maybe Newest Cases just got caught up in that clean up?

Maybe they didn’t realise how useful we found Newest Cases? Maybe they didn’t realise how it helped us feel more involved with the product? Hopefully they’ll listen to us, as they’ve done in the past.

Newest Cases is a useful and helpful thing for all of us developers, but especially for beta testers. Please consider bringing it back.

Right - Newest and Recently Active are much more important for our “daily work”. Not only during Betas, but even more after a new public release. By reading along the “headlines”, we are aware of what might affect us (and many times find a workaround, too). That has saved us many hours. And it helps a lot to prepare our own applications as best as possible.

Still - we can assign Points to our “My Top Cases”… And it’s nice to see what the “global Top Cases” are, as it’s a result of what we can assign. I understand that Xojo hasn’t made it very clear what this means - that this doesn’t define what Xojo’s “Top cases” are.

They just need to make that very clear. Maybe rename “(my) top cases” to “(my/community’s) top wishes”.
And put an explanation above the lists… such as:
Top: reports that have been assigned the most points. it’s what the community would love to see. it’s not Xojo’s priority list. Some feedback here might even be unrealistic and will never be implemented.

(same applies to Newest and Recently Active - see some “explanation ideas” above)

BTW: A Feedback App Related Cases Shared Folder: feedback://subscribe?folder_id=264

Careful, if you use a feature too much, they’ll remove it.

I considered deleting my post as I may have been overly harsh as I was / am very upset seeing such a decline in information. I get emotional about the tools I love.

I do think we need to hear something from @Geoff Perlman about the changes to Feedback and how Xojo views our votes on cases.

I’d also appreciate more information about how the Web, iOS, and Android transitions from the New Framework to API 2.0 will work from a developer standpoint.

Now that things are ‘priority’ or ‘important’, could Xojo make a list of those to share sorted in some manner? We all understand that dates are too difficult, but how about just a list?

I was thinking about it too. I will leave my (also harsh) comments online. They express how much i love Xojo Tools and how pationate i am about them.

great idea - however the shared folder is currently read-only / password protected. I’d love to participate with my feedback favourites to raise some attention on them: 11141, 9105, 11632, 49948 and 9501

Added more Cases and made it editable without Password. (I don’t think this should be possible, but …) :smiley:

The Xojo engineers don’t get on the forums much any more and now they’ve removed features from Feedback. I think we must ask ourselves why they would do such a thing? Bottom line is that the Xojo engineers are removing pain points from their work lives.

I and others have been guilty of bashing them over missed deadlines. So now we don’t get an estimated schedule we get the silly classifications that tell us nothing important. We’ll get it when they feel it’s ready and not a moment sooner.

While we are pretty welcoming to new developers we are quite often BRUTAL in how we treat the Xojo engineers. Comments like, “I can’t believe you shipped Xojo with bug”, and bashing their work takes its toll when applied over years.

They work in the product all day long so they are acutely aware (most of the time at least) on the deficiencies of the product. Because of the Rapid Release Model they don’t often have the luxury of fully implementing things as they want to in every release. They took a lot of heat over the Windows drawing issues and I’m sure they knew about them from the beginning and did their best. (I don’t know this as fact but from many years of conversations at XDC so I’m extrapolating from past comments).

So if something was removed from Feedback there was a reason. If we beat them up on a regular basis because of some bug that we only found via Feedback then we’re the problem. Complaining about how many new bugs are listed in Feedback isn’t helpful.

I have products that I sell. I get the occasional bitchy comment about how dare I release such a crappy product. Um yeah…I’m really… enthused… about helping them. I’m much more likely to help someone who comes from a respectful place and tells me what they’ve tried first and what they’re trying to accomplish. I have a small fraction of the customers that Xojo has so if I have these types of customers I can only imagine how many Xojo has.

If I sound like an apologist, well, I guess I am. I am friends with Greg and Norman and knew them before they worked for Xojo, and known the rest of the Xojo staff for nearly 20 years (or however long they’ve been with the company). My business depends on the product they put an awful lot of hard work into. If I think they deserve to get criticism I do it but I always try to do it respectfully as I want the product to be better. I try to never make it personal but some people can’t seem to do that.

The internet, in general, is not a very kind place. I’m sure it’s not hard to come up with a dozen issues between Twitter, FaceBook, and various other public forums where civility is replaced with hatred and snark over the simplest things. Perhaps we are not nice to each other over the internet because we’re not in front of the person seeing their humanity. I’ve observed that many people say hurtful things online than they do in-person. We should be grateful we have such a wonderful communication means at our disposal.

So maybe going forward we can all ask ourselves if what I’m going to post is respectful and helpful? Or, is it coming from anger and will only make the situation worse? I get it, we’re all busy and bugs really stink, but taking it out on the Xojo employees isn’t productive. Report it, with example, and followup on questions they ask.

We are welcoming and kind to new Xojo developers. Maybe we should be kind and respectful to those that make the product.

@Bob Keeney While I agree with the core message of your post, I still think that the removal of the “newest” list is a misguided decision.

Of course… And realize the huge achievements of this small team. Not everything can be done.
In my opinion the whole thing about Feedback started with poor communication towards us, Xojo developers.

I don’t disagree. I tend to review it before I post my new release reviews just to see what other people are experiencing. I think if we give valid reasons why we want this list it has a chance of coming back.

Communication is a two-way avenue. In general, our poor communication TO Xojo certainly isn’t helping.

I don’t care about feedback - never have. I have contributed fixes to issues raised by others never got adopted by Xojo itself. I imagine many other issues have secret workarounds that are not evident unless you go digging. Why these are not on the Wiki or forums, or maybe they are, I dunno. It ends up being very time consuming searching all of these endpoints for tidbits of knowledge.

It is clear to me that backend management/sorting/prioritizing of all of the data in Feedback is overwhelming and out of control. This is par the course for any complex product though. Plus everyone involved is above average intelligence on both sides and in many cases high egos. It creates a situation where it can be increasingly challenging to communicate. Add in some expectations like “please actually resolve this” when it is unclear and subjective what resolution actually represents = chaos.

In some cases a bug is just a misunderstanding. In others its a RTFM situation. In others its a legitimate bug but extremely difficult to duplicate. In others its an obvious bug and you are left wondering if they have a QA team. Your experience and mileage will vary but ultimately everyone complains about it eventually.

I would like the app to be less “Feedback” and more “Issue Tracker”. Removing features of the tracking part is kind of annoying because it was already a bit of a black hole as “Feedback” does not imply a meaningful or positive outcome.

Supporting others is very difficult and I know I’ve failed at it in my business at times. What I have learned though is always make it right and try to be as realistic as possible. Most people are patient and willing to wait for a solid solution. I upset people the most if things fall of the radar and I think Feedback is notorious for that.