Begging for another Release System

This is right but than please maintain the needed updates for the ide and for language errors while developing 2020 Rex. Everything else is for professional developers a big problem. As long as I have to live with there is no option cause there are to many errors. We’ve documented in the meantime nearly 200 problems witch are in the need of updates. It is beside this not helping that the Xojo team is not all the time understanding what’s going on but it is not gone because you close your eyes. For professional developers it is not going on to work on a platform witch will close down the needed functionality at all. In my case not this big problem for Xojo only a few paying customers witch will go an develop with another platform. But this can not be the wanted way of Xojo. Making stuffs more complex because people will shoot in their feet’s is not bringing out something new. If Xojo will stay alive there has to be a new way of releasing. A software company with 20 or less employees can not bring out every half of a year a new release I know. Especially because of this there should be a careful handling of pro customers need. Not that I have a problem with Citizen developers. No. They are needed. But pro users also. Because they are the innovation motor if a company is doing it right. But at Xojo the focus is settled up to citizen users while they shall not hit their own feet’s. When I read this I see that there is in the view of Xojo no need for professional developers. Try byself when asking in the forum and see the reactions. There are people behind witch have to generate their income with xojo

It is not “complex” as the user would not see it, and anyway treating it as separate targets is a better way.

Btw Carbon & Cocoa were two Mac frameworks within one Xojo IDE, so I really don’t see it as “impossible” to have two web targets or two Web project types in one Xojo IDE.

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It’s not the same.

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There is slight difference though…

Carbon vs Cocoa had same interface in Xojo…so you had like

g.DrawLine

And to the Xojo user that had same interface no matter if it was Carbon or Cocoa, but under the hood it of course would do different things.

For Web1 vs Web2 this is not the case, the Interface is completely different to the Xojo user.

With that said then I still agree with you on that they “should” be able to do it, at least in theory, and it would be ideal for this case as well as some other cases. But for all we know the way the IDE is built up it might be very difficult.

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You’re right it is not impossible and it is not hard. We’ve done it long time in all compiler projects for our rtos solutions and for our VMS solutions also. So if somebody tells this there can be to fundamental problems witch giving a clear fundament for this:

  1. to less programmers

Cause if you have to less programmers you can not work out and you must have fast solutions witch are compiled ant wrote fast. While having not enough people on development you will have the problem that it needs to much time to do anything else than developing in the fastest way.

For this reason also speaking by self is the in my view half baken Web 2.0.

  1. There is not enough money to invest in the technology change

Does the situation of 1. if there is no other foundation for deciding not to develop.

  1. Other target of customers

Also possible is another target of customers. I.e. is you want to get developers in low level development you may have succcess with this strategy but it will bang all other in front of their heads.

I prefere Number 1. That’s making it nearly impossible iof you have only 2 or 4 people to do it it will cost a long, long time and every new implementation of functionality will cost time.

@Thom_McGrath I know. It is anyhow a question of ressources. To bring it once to a modular framework it will cost tons of time where you will need to have the ressources for. This is something I know really exactly cause my company is a bit bigger and has the same problems all day long.

But if you want to have a way out you do not need to write every time everything new to have a complete new environment. You may have the chance to reuse tons of code and you may have the chance to avoid to big piles of work.

But for this you need the decision to do it and the money. Exactly this we can not have in a small company. So the company is reacting like you. You where “making” web 1.0. Great work. Also Web 2.0 is great work. But there is the need for something new because like you can see, objectively there is no chance to hold the situation like it is now. As far as I know this business there is one major problem: much more work than available working time in the infrastructure. This makes it hard to get out a new solution in time. I know this and I respect this.

And it would be even not a problem if you would produce target IDEś to get a bit out of shooting area. Cause this would also reduce the amount of stress. Cause you would have - in the end - a modular IDE and your language on top. So you would have two piles: one is the ide, something everybody needs it working reliable and performant. The other is your target language and Compiler. In that moment you would have not this amount of problems.

And yes: if I would never write a compiler I would not understand you. But I can understand. But never say it is impossible. Possibility comes with the size of the structure. But this is one of the screws you can not turn like you want as owner of a company like this: within growin you may get bigger but you will never have the structure you are dreaming about.

And in under this conditions there is, again you are right, no chance to do it. Right. But than you may understand that it is not a possible way to say in the same moment: when rollout then no updates for old. And that’s what happenss now: no Update for 2019R3.2 anymore. While there is 2020. With the small problem that the most users have not even an Idea how to convert their projects and how to live with it.

And in the also same moment there is the message that functionality in a wide range is not coming back. That makes a problem: at this moment developers are working with a dying solution. Whgen it’s dead because of for example changes at APPLE or Microsoft there will not be the chance to use the old technology. Only the chance for the new one. But, ouch: there is not the right amount of functionality. That’s why this is never working. It was never and it will never.

So: I am not the one witch is waiting for a train what never comes.

I was about to jump into Xojo - Boots and All - especially because the promises of the multi-platforms etc. Xojo has now released 2020 R1, but as we all now see, it is not complete/ not ready for production development. It should be called a Beta Release as a minimum (perhaps even less), and that would soften the sting that all the Xojo faithfuls are feeling right now. I have been where you are now (with other software systems), and I empathise with you all so much. Best solution, from where I sit is to continue with 2019 version as it works in a way you all understand, and you can still generate an income, which this is all about. In the meantime, a few hours here and there will help Xojo home in on problems that need to be dealt with for Xojo 2020 to become a serious contender again. Any other approach will see people screaming, and as we all understand, software developed under extreme pressure never seems to work as it should. Take the pressure off Xojo - they will deliver much faster than you will believe possible.

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It all depends on what is your target. 2020r1 has several fixes for Desktop target (Mac/Windows/Linux) but it has a brand new Web target (Web 2.0) and the complains are based in features that people have been using in Web 1.0 that are not available in Web 2.0 yet.

Some people will not use Web, in that case 2020r1 is pretty good. Others will just start with Web, and 2020r1 is good enough. If you are new to Xojo 2020r1 is a good release if you are a Xojo Web 1.0 programmer with many years working with it, then 2020r1 is not ready for you to convert your medium/large Web 1.0 projects to Web 2.0, yet.

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@George_Sideris maybe but the Ideas of cutting the functionality are not believings. They are reality where Geoff Perlman said that it will stay so and the functionality will not come back. And that because the people will shoot in their feets with this functionality. Sorry that has nothing to do with it.

And: 2019R3.2 has also massive errors where a stop of updating is really a problem. Therefore I am fighting cause with upcoming of 2020R1 the maintenance for 2019R3.x is stopped and gone.

So: where in between. But we need clear direction from xojo. They can release all pressure by self with telling us how and what. Not even when they will change. Only how and what. See, if apple changes something on their OS I have the problem that my apps are not working anymore made with 2019R3.2.

This is a dangerous situation for me I have to prevent.

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This is only true if you are running a web 1 on Apple. But really, what’s the use-case for that?

No you are right if Apple changes something in Safari. Then we are completely @#$&*!
In fact any browser update could potentially break us. This is unacceptable.

No that’s not right either. Browsers are supposed to be standards based. There is minimal risk of Web 1 being stranded from an OS point of view.

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That’s a possibility but I think is minor. Anyway, I hope that if that happens soon, Xojo could release 2019r3.3 (if minor changes needed) or even 2019r4 if more changes are needed to make Web 1.0 work.

Currently, it is impossible to move our projects from Web 1.0 to Web 2.0 (some features that will be available in later releases and hours needed to move the code over), so I hope there are no browser changes that will break our sites for at least 2-3 years.

There is a maximum risk that Apple changes their MAC/OS not running xojo Apps anymore … not that we had never something like this… Release Notes 2019. Fixed linker error that occurred on macOS Big Sur. bUT YES, for what somebody will need it. Your totaly right…NOPE: the other way around.

I will try to move a Web service that uses XojoScript and may benefit because it has no web UI which seems to be where most of the Web 2 problems occur with Web 1 apps.

Desktop and console apps work fine in 2020r1 don’t they? We are only talking Web 1 server. Does your clients run these on Apple? That is rare, although I agree that at least IDE 2019r3.x needs maintenance. There are lots of people who use the Apple IDE. Linux needs work too but I’m encouraged Xojo Inc included more Linux in its latest marketing newsletter.
And it would surely cost Xojo Inc. very little to backport API 2.0 fixes to 2019r3.x. I cannot see why they would not do this while there’s nowhere for many Web 1 apps to go…

My clients run often on Apple Hardware I am really, really sorry. Not rare, normal working condition.

They will not do maintenance for 2019R3.x like Geoff Perlman said cause the people can use 2019r3.2 until 2010 is ready for use with all needed features. So: for me there is no perspective under this conditions. There would be a chance when including both Web Services in one IDE: switching before starting developing would be no problem. So we could decide byself. But whis is making development more expensive for the company so they decided not to do that.

By the way do not forget: often xojo is not used to produce websites it is often used for IOT stuffs and small devices like we are using it.

If you are not using Web 1 UI in browsers then what problems have you found converting to Web2 ?

No mouse events in canvas with sending of mouseposition for example

It’s going to get better.

I’m not switching to web2.0 for existing projects but am really excited to start new ones in the future! I highly doubt web1.0 will break anytime soon.

And yes. X,Y clicks will defiantly be available in a future release, it would really surprise me to see it missing for the long term.

Derek it came up with something Geoff said about , it wasn’t my own Idea or invention. But it’s clear that it will come. After there will be the need of a rewrite. For me it doesn’t matter as long as xojo 2029 is still working until 2020 will have all functionality. But by the way I cannot understand reinventions like made with msgbox renamed to messagebox