If it would be the first time…okay. Other guys of my company where sending feedbacks, we have here more than 70 feedbacks. Guess what? With or without informations they became ignored over the time. The time to work out the documentation is not woth of the working time for it because it will be ignored. Or postponed until there is another release. If this release will have the same error…it is a new issue please write and do documentation. You know, I am sadlie tired from waiting for solutions for known bugs. I have to decide for my company if my developers will have to change to another environment. All of them are free in their decisions but they want to know witch way I will go. If I am going another way…they will follow. Because also freelancers have to have a working environment. And our Software freelancers are more or less in contact to xojo for years. And in the knowledge that on the point today it is becoming a problem cause of the new release strategy. That’s why I am randing. Not because there is no chance for a solution. Because many errors are still existing from 2017 / 2018. The IDE for example. The Linux IDE 2018 was not usable. We had to develop with Windows cause it became to slow. 2019 R1 was not better. With R3.2 it is still not really good. That’s something known for the company and for the Support. It is known that copy paste is not working correct. There is no need for a known error witch is even known by Mr. Perlman, he answered me via Mail before a few days: "We are aware that the IDE is slower on Linux. ". But I should do a documentation (witch we already made and sended in beginning of 2019). Please see that it is deeper than you expect now. It is not "he is to lacy to send something. It is the knowledge that there is an error witch will never be corrected.
And also answered Mr. Perlman to my questions for Web 2.0 readyness (hope we will get ready asap). Yes they know about it. But it seams that the policy is different.
@Thorsten_Stueker This is the missing part (and tone) I was looking for and a good base for a discussion. Thank you!
I agree on some pieces. For me it was the Windows flickering for years, which drove me nuts, really nuts :-(, to the extent that I had to temporarily leave Xojo as well and ultimately even giving up the further development of one particular product. That’s why I gave up on any roadmap from Xojo long time ago.
I’m waiting for a new release and I’m looking what I can do with it and I learned the hard way not to promise anything. And as with any product, we know that you can only use it for productive purposes after the third release. Web 2.0 will be no different.
For instance the answer to my customers about Android ist: NO. If they ask if there are plans for the future, the answer is still NO. 10 years ago I would have replied: “well, we are optimistic that in 1 year, we can perhaps offer Android”. Nope, though I love Xojo, I am not making any promises to my customers any longer.
I guess the difference in our both situations is that you are asking for support for Web 1.0, as for me Web 1.0 (though still having some apps running for customers) is a dead horse for many years.
See, I cannot tell my customers we can not deliver Android Apps. They will give their development needs to another life science company. The market is full of medical app developers. So I have the rest: DEVELOPING OF ELECTRONICS, FIRMWARE AND HARDWARE witch is making it to a nightmare if somebody else has to develop the APP for IOS or android. This is my fundamental problem why I had to switch my ios and android development cause I need to reuse code. And this is also the need with xojo: if they would be able to do what they claim I would accept, be silent like the last years and happy. But I am not cause everything became slow and now stopping development on the only kind of stable release with a not full developed release as spare. Sorry that I was randing, this behavior costs me much money and nerves.
Accomplishing that development is a hard business and building up an IDE and a programming language also I cannot cry becaue I know and I was also allways in the knowledge that xojo is a small company.
But they have also to look on me. I have to feed the entire troup with work. They are counting on me and I have to do it. But how shall I if it is not possible becuase of this situation? A nice circle i am in.
I am deeply and honestly sorry Thorsten, your problem will not be addressed any time soon, and we have all been there so I do sincerely feel you pain, you must do whatever is necessary to meet the needs and demands of your customers, with or without Xojo.
Now moving forward, what can we as customers do to make sure that future releases of our favorite tool actually do deliver on their promises and that Xojo Inc has both the funds and clearly defined customer expectations to deliver solutions that meet the majority of customer needs from now on?
It does if it is tied to contractually enforced expectation of performance that is mutually agreed upon and enforceable by law. I agree that they dont deserve another cent, but that standpoint is unlikely to accomplish results. Money and the lack thereof is (I suspect) at the heart of the issue, along with completely out of touch and inexperienced management.
If you want to actually solve the problem for all involved, a compromise will need to be reached that is fair, effective and enforceable for all involved.
Poor leadership, no money for more engineers means the talent that they do have is burned out crafting up new features on the bosses whim instead of being allowed to take things where the need to go. More money would certainly help them.
A clearly defined roadmap of our own, based on user consensus along with the funds to accomplish it would change the game. This would need to be contractually tied to a performance requirement and milestones reached for each disbursement.
Im being quite civil. This issue will be addressed, if not here where it belongs and where it can add value, then elsewhere outside the scope of official control.
This needs a resolution, more than any 100 topics posted to the forum. This is existential and critical discourse.
It is about systemic problems that are beginning neglected for years and demand a solution if we are going to move forward as customer and solutions provider. case 61525 and the self imposed formality are not a means or justification to stifle valid criticism or the civil discussion of solutions.
This needs to be fixed. full stop.
Xojo should be glad we are still passionate about the product.
While that may be true, this conversation should be centered on the case specified. Discussion about anything else, including the future or past of Xojo, is off-topic. Feel free to open a new thread about that if you wish.
So this formality should be used to break the train of thought, lose people and increase the noise… just for some arbitrary rule? We are having a productive solutions seeking session and I am so glad that Xojo officials have joined in. Now we can get somewhere assuming you also seek a mutual solution to this existential issue.
This needs to be solved, it cannot continue and could be worked out between us all so we can buy your product and make our money with it and all add value.
People, the customer base is watching this convo… if it gets canned without any attempt to resolve in good faith… it will be a serious blow to confidence and support of the product moving forward.
Because of a recent conversation with @Geoff_Perlman, i know they are. And they are listening very carefully.
Not everybody would agree with this, but other Frameworks are also evolving. And some evolve very fast and becoming more and more attractive.
I also love how Xojo enables me to create solutions without Pro Knowledge and to create them fast and in most cases without much pain. But in the last few months my fears that Xojo will actually die have increased rapidly. We have decided not to fight it any longer and will now just wait and see how Xojo develops.
It has been asked that this discussion get back on-topic three times. I am now doing what I’ve been avoiding for hours, despite a number of complaints, and locking it.
Part of the issue that derailing topics like this face is that there’s far too much noise for the engineers or @Geoff_Perlman to get to the information they need to properly address concerns. I encourage you to open a new discussion with your complaints and any solutions you may be able to offer, and refer back to this discussion if need be.