When writing with the company CEO he said that it is known that there is a copy paste error. In Feedback it is closed cause not enough information. Thanks for again ignoring. I am not interested to send a video and do stuffs. It is like it is.
Thorsten, I know you’re having a tough time with this, but sometimes it really is helpful to get information from the person that is reporting the problem. A video, for instance, sometimes shows us a key piece of information that the user neglected to mention in their reproduction steps. We ask for these things because we really do want to fix the issue you are reporting, and sometimes that means putting in a little more effort.
In this case, because you refused to supply any more information, the case was closed.
It is the same like the issue with client date. Known and there in all circumstances. More informations for an error witch is there and can be reproduced? Sorry, we have to support our customers and especially I have to do it. In my opinion it is active ignoring of customer problems. If I have to write an entire documentation for every single Problem and not to be allowed to write more than one error in one Letter in Germany we have no understanding for a behavior like this. Find an error in B4i software and ask them. You will get answers. Asking Xojo brings unnice scenes like this.
And no, I am not Randbiotop without thinking. I am ranking because there is the time where the pile is becoming to big. This point is reached.
A beautiful example of the long-term consequences of Xojo‘s Rapid Release Model that emphasises new features over quality (stability, reliability, usability).
I read your feedback case: feedback://showreport?report_id=61525 … Why can’t you just send a movie as requested and / or be more specific? Whatever the policy might be you are talking about, Xojo is politely asking for more information, but your responses are, let’s say a tiny bit less polite. No one has any benefit out of all these rants.
i think it is still a matter of human resources.
for some feedback cases xojo could do more self-initiative, my opinion.
reporting bugs with examples and videos is time-consuming, we do this for nothing
and in the same time we are unproductive and got a new grey hair.
we all bougth a product and expect that it works mainly.
if i would gave Greg a nickname then “the closer”
Please do not take these comments the wrong way.
I would say Greg is under a lot of pressure because he has a lot on his plate. So what should he do? Fix bugs that are well documented or deal with bug reports where he has to figure it out himself from an often poor description?
The MINIMUM a bug report should contain is a demo project showing the bug to save Greg time that would better be spend on actually fixing the bug.
If the bug is intermittent then a movie or screenshot is essential.
So I have a LOT of sympathy and understanding for Greg and his position.
That doesn‘t change my opinion that the current situation is the predicted long-term effect of the Rapid Release Model.
I share your pain.
There has been a love and seriously hate relationship with Xojo for a few years now, once it was trivial to quickly develop anything in-house within reason and now the level of frustration, disappointment, despair and quite frankly disgust are beginning to mount.
First, I need to use the IDE hosted on Windows 7 because doing so on Linux is not practical. I began my latest project using threading as the design, only to discover that threading causes 100% CPU utilization on linux, fine. I built a workaround using shared memory for an MPI and console applications tied to a single GUI application, this was non trivial. I spent months performance tuning and testing my algorithms and MPI to reach a perfect balance of performance and resource utilization… only to try a test run on 2020r1 and find that the throughput has halved and CPU utilization is now at 100%. Do I now spend months trying to find out what underling change has nullified all my effort? No, I compile with 2017r3, ship the results, immediately begin a transition to another SDK and swear to never do business with Xojo again.
The OP’s tone is harsh, but he has a legitimate complaint. Xojo is not a new startup. There is no reasonable justification for having bugs that are older than your children within the core language. Bugs in obscure or newly implemented features could be overlooked if there was a clear expectation of a actual fix within a reasonable time frame. But Xojo considers an exhaustive workaround to be enough justification to ignore a major issue indefinably. There should be no new features even considered until the most essential functions of the language, on all supported platforms are bullet proof. Lets be frank, whoever is expecting Android and other future implementations are not being critical of the situation. The core API has bugs, mountains of bugs, and anything beyond hello world will eventually thrust you into a never-ending river of showstopper after showstopper and if you are really lucky, a possible workaround that allows you to bake a sub par product for your Herculean effort.
There should be NO showstoppers or workarounds present for a language that has been around since the late 1990s. Something must change if there is to be any future with this tool. There is a robbing peter to pay paul, ponzi-esque vibe with each new release focusing almost exclusively on bring new and ultimately useless new targets and features, rather than cleaning up the mess that is the core API.
Everybody can plainly see that the management goal appears to be in acquiring new subscribers (and fees) at ANY cost, this is ultimately unsustainable, irresponsible and insulting to your dedicated and fee paying existing subscriber base. Xojo is being buried in an avalanche of bugs that they will never be able to surmount, the possibility of ever getting ahead of the problem diminishes with each man hour spent on a new marketing gimmick. There are solutions that could turn this around in a reasonable time frame and with the (rapidly expiring) corporate reputation still intact.
First, a moratorium on ALL new feature and target development with 6-12 months of intense focus on the core DESKTOP bugs, with those out of the way, Web 2.0 comes next and finally mobile targets dead last. Mobile platforms are walled gardens designed to allow the manufacture to generate fees and to control what’s possible on their platform, its garbage. A solid WEB based functionality that supports mobile would be far more useful to the customer base then begging Apple to allow you to run your own code on your own device, only to be denied because of some arbitrary or political issue.
A Desktop quality assurance pass needs to include the IDE, everybody has been complaining about the ■■■■ poor performance of the IDE for years only to be met with feigned skepticism and a demand for yet another bug report from management to diffuse the issue. If I used the IDE to type this message as a text editor, it would be crawling on its knees by the time we got to the end, forcing a restart. Please, no more pretending this is not a extremely well reported and common problem… it needs to be FIXED, not passed over or denied outright. Bug fixes need to roll out as they become ready, no bundling hundreds of them and having showstoppers waiting for months on the completion of another marketing gimmick to boost sales.
Second, once the core DESKTOP bugs are crushed, then we need another 6 months of hard core performance tuning. 64 BIT needs to fly, remote debugging needs work… no excuses. No more abysmal performance, it needs to fly on commodity hardware and not require SSDs, i7s and a terabyte of ram to achieve usable performance. Get all physical hardware for all supported desktops and do some optimization. Real basic used to fly, it needs to again.
Third, stop trying to re-invent the wheel. Any time spent on developing options and features that already have a solid performing third party solution is a monumental waste of time. The third party plug in devs in our community are the only reason this language still exists, let them continue to use their free market driven process to determine what new functionality the customers are willing to pay for. The fact that PDF was given ANY dev time over critical bug fixes when a high quality, third party solution is off the shelf, is mind blowing.
Finally, we all understand that Xojo’s ■■■ is against the wall. I certainly sympathize and DO NOT WANT you to fail. I myself am willing to double my annual licence fee, and take an immediate licence if Xojo would commit to any reasonable derivative of the above that gets the core Xojo to where it needs to be in the next 6-12 months. I would be willing to contribute even more cash if signs of solid progress and an honest effort to correct this dumpster fire was forthcoming. I’m sure that Xojo still has enough of a loyal fan base that some emergency collective crowdfunding could be worked out if we had assurance that our money was not going to be squandered on meaningless and malfunctioning marketing drivel. Its your baby, come up with a crowd funding plan and make a pitch to the fan-base, I’m sure that many here would consider an honest and reasonable proposal.
The balls in your court Xojo, turn it around right now… or cease to exist. The status quo is no longer available to milk. The world economy is severely impacted and we can’t remain in this cycle of lost time, frustration and failure any longer. We WANT to see your company thrive, stop wasting the opportunity and please do whats needed.
possible but then he need assistance without stopping other teammates at her tasks.
that i meant with “human resources”. and more must be affordable. (vicious cycle)
Or as I like to say: “Basic features must be rock solid”.
The problem with Xojo the tool is that new users just use a small part of it. They often don’t see the show stoppers.
But if you are a professional user and have build your business on Xojo then sooner or later you will run into them.
That’s why so many left.
I especially logged in again in this forum because of your post. Your analysis is spot on and the general feeling a big part of Xojo users seem to have.
I remember, about 5 years ago, I raised hell at the office protecting this tool against my colleagues who had lost faith in it and was really angry when I lost that fight. Now looking back and seeing the ongoing decay, I’m 100% sure this was the best decision our company has made.
In RealBasic times, it was the very best in making cross platform desktop applications. RB/Xojo was an expert in it. Not so much with the other platforms added. iOS is a gimmick, Web 1.0 never took off (and let us hope Web 2.0 does not follow the same path) and Android is way to late to the party. But the worst part of all of it is indeed, as you stated, not to be able to deliver a stable version in almost a decade, even for the platforms they once excelled in. The tool is in constant Beta and that way you can’t but loose the faith of your user base. They seem to have forgotten that their users have to use it to make a living too and that the tool they make is the foundation of that.
The stubbornness of Xojo to continue walking the wrong path, ignoring posts like yours (and mine back in the time, as this is nothing new) who try to see them the light (again) is staggering! I’ve never seen a tool so not listening to their user base. They are not Apple, who can do that as the world just needs to follow their decisions, even if they seem wrong. Nor are they, as you say, a startup who can be forgiven its first steps into developing programming tools. Xojo should be more than mature enough by now to make state-of-the-art, robust and virtually bug free software. Other tools can, and in much shorter time span so why can’t Xojo?
Xojo may praise itself very, very lucky they have some users who write plugins, bug workarounds and language extensions to elevate their tool above a toy language. But I have seen many of them leave the tool, just giving up. I was fortunate to encounter some of them again recently and you still feel a lot of love for the Xojo tool, but with a sense of remembering a faded glory.
It pains me that posts like yours have to come up on this forum all the time. But I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. Xojo has a high tolerance against being kicked in the b*utt to redeem themselves. The Xojo engineers are very hard working people, I am sure of that. But there is only so much a human being can do, not given the much needed resources. No clear skies ahead for Xojo I’m afraid…
If @Christian_Schmitz MBS was “included” and native xojo the whole world shoud have been using Xojo by now
Why can’t Xojo correct a for years known error? Why can’t Xojo release when the functionality is ready for use? Why can’t Xojo see that for example client time is in all implementations misfunctioning when the client has no timeserver and the Server also not? Guess what: to many questions to do for all of the stuff example projects and videos. Maybe you can do it but I have every end of the month to pay my employees.
You are not the only one using Xojo professionally, But your ticket content was nothing but useless for Xojo to help. Replying with a movie or a template would have been less time consuming than writing these rants. As much as it doesn’t help reading here pages of justified or less justified complaints about the tool itself. Pretending that one will leave the platform in each second posts but still remaining looks like a hopeless endless loop, which steals precious time of many readers.
Jeanie muller, the content was enough cause it’s known, discussed and approved for years. This errors are not new.
And for the Web 2.0 stuffs: they exactly know that a big bunch of 60 percent of functionality is missed.
For me there is no need for Xojo. But I really like the concept
I share your lament and appreciate your reaching out. I would absolutely agree that based on years of progress stagnation and willful ignoring of the customers, there would be little reason to expect any change of that policy going forward, in-spite of passionate pleas. However, I believe that the situation may be reaching a climax, with rising discontent and dissatisfaction among the fee paying customers, the almost open revolt over unforeseen and massive changes to the web api and finally the fact that many will be forced to do belt tightening over the virus induced, global recession.
People who have not been renewing their subscriptions for principal or technical reasons will absolutely not be doing so when their customer’s are contracting due to market forces. This is the cut off point, deliver what the customer demands in short order or die. No amount of marketing hype or hopium will be able to overcome the fact that new prospects will take one look at the latest posts in the forum and run away fast.
The few remaining options they have now is to rely on the dedicated fan base to float them financially during major redevelopment and for that they will need to have a titanic paradigm shift that puts the customer needs first, front and center. Or they can sell to interested and wealthy parties, or be obliterated by stubbornness. The cycle of assured survival in-spite of mismanagement ends here.
Furthermore, I must qualify that this hurts so much because we LOVE Xojo. We want to see it reach its full potential and it breaks our hearts like a beloved relative who could be the king, but willfully squanders their preciousness time and energy getting wasted at the bar every night, spewing falsehoods and going downhill fast when they should be the undisputed master of an entire industry.
Its almost not too late to pull it out of the fire, but it demands leadership.
I remember predictions like these happened already 15 years ago, as much as people said they will leave (including myself) and returned, as obviously life wasn’t so much better anywhere else …
I partially agree, yes it would to be sure, but the reason why Christian is so great at what he does is directly tied to profit motive, as it should be. Take away his direct control and remove the financial incentive and MBS would never be as great as it is now… and it IS GREAT. (actually essential, my opinion)
But many more have never returned so I guess they must have found something to their satisfaction.
Nobody argues this could be a great/stable tool, but the wait has now been so long the believe it ever will be is very far away