Xojo for rant

Off-Topic
41

I’s a simple matter of not huffing one’s own brand and being objective.

For the sake of time, the issues I have highlighted (and posted at exhausted length in a previous “Shut it down” thread found here : 61525-closed-but-known-error) can be easily proven as true with the following steps…

1) Find (ANY), yes… even one recently positive product review of Xojo, rendered by a neutral third party, who is not a member of the community and also reviews other similar tools objectively. Every recent technical review from outside our community follows the exact same chain of complaints. This was not true of Real Basic in the past.

2) Customer input and opinions are not sought, desired or even acknowledged here anymore… If you are truly after objective facts that will help the business and community, put up a general poll questionnaire for Xojo users to anonymously give their honest feedback about the paying customer’s experience with the product and their assessment of the reliability and fitness of the product. No need to solicit a customer driven road maps or long winded complaints, a simple 5 question format with 1-5 values will do. Put this questionnaire in a neutral location that is outside of Xojo control. Let the cards fall where they may and erase all self delusion in the name of efficacy and transparency.

3) Stop censoring your customer’s valid complaints, using trivialities, formalities and technicalities as an excuse to claim that some arbitrary forum rules are being violated, and therefore are grounds to halt the conversation is childish and many agree that it reeks of desperation. If you really cared about improving the process, progress and mutual result… you would not allow or support this behavior from official company representatives.

Nobody is claiming that Xojo is not a good idea, or that we want to see the company suffer (quite the opposite) but it does not matter how good the fanbase is or how comfortable the interior upholstery feels if the vehicle is not passing basic airworthiness… Being a small company is not an excuse… Cinema 4d (an unrelated 3D animation software suite) that hit the market in the 1990s just like Xojo and was run by two brothers as a tiny outfit has been making virtually error free code for 20+ years in a program that is just as technically complex or perhaps even more than Xojo.

It can be done, Real Basic was quality software worth the fee, Xojo needs to take its customer’s needs and demands into account if it wants to survive… there is no excuses or way around this hard, flat fact.

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42

Six years of excruciating pain have to be good for something … :face_with_head_bandage:

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43

And Aloe and Xanadu were fantastic tools given freely to the community. Who in their right mind thinks no longer having Hal and Tim is not a massive loss to the community?

Maybe the MVPs should be put to better use and write a replacement? :hugs:

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44

OK, folks, last call to bring it back on-topic. The original poster asked about the efficacy of ranting on the forums in comparison to other tools with the same. Let’s keep it clean and discuss.

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45

Lighten up and have a dekker at this https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com/

IMHO this is symptomatic of the internet age we live in. Almost every forum I’ve seen over the years start out with a valid aspiration, but degenerated into a whinge-fest.

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46

Ok. You asked for it. But don’t blame me if you get banned.

I don’t see any of these complains on the B4 forums. All I hear from the users is how fast and stable the apps are, and what a fantastic job Ariel is doing.

THAT’s what I want to hear from Xojo users.

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47

But there has to be a bigger structure cause xojo has a structure witch is making it really complex to develop. Even we have the knowledge here that it is a real problem. For xojo it is much more complex to build up as it is for erel and his stuffs

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48

Topic is too far-gone.

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49

Let us find a solution together: we will not rant anymore. Under this condition xojo has to start to react on complaining. Cause that’s what’s missed: a reacting system for the xojo users. We fell alone with our Stuffs. One difference what erel ith making different is exactly this. The complains are coming up cause there is not a stable language structure. If there would be Namespaces we would be happy with it cause it would make the language long term kompatible with itself. That is something we see as a problem.

There would also be a small chance of satisfied customers.

Also: stop to get out with Android Messages until you have it ready. Learn from the guys around you like Erel from B4 cause he shows how it goes. And yes there has to be a long term structure.

I know that it is always a small line you are walking on and not an all day happyness. I know that it is really comple and that decisions are never really taht what community expects.

Ket yourself be a bit more communiy driven cause the community tells you what’s needed. Maybe the way you where setting up IOS and trying to setup android is not the right one. So: change iot if needed cause that is needed to get it to one language instead of Desktop Language, Web Language, IOS Language and Android Language.

2 Likes
50

If, I may, I would like to point out a situation, whereby sometimes that one person who does speak out, is actually speaking for a majority of customers.

Recently had a discussion with a developer (different tool, different place) about Apple’s push to IAP. Like myself, this dev was pushed into adopting IAP, and like me has seen a tremendous drop in sales because of it. Also like myself, this dev had implemented a FREE trial, and was finding that the rate of people who download the product v.s. who try it, was abysmal. Like me, this dev was stumped.

He received one question from a customer asking him if the FREE trial was an Apple Subscription (where-by at the end of the trial, if you don’t cancel, you get charged). That dev then did the work to make it clearer that his app DOES NOT use Apple’s subscriptions, and as a direct result the free trial rates are up and so are sales.

Out of 10s of thousands of downloads, only one person gave the dev an inkling as to why conversion rate was so poor, which turned out to be that one person was speaking on behalf of the majority of the people trying this app. If the dev had dismissed this as it’s not the voice of the majority (because the majority was silent), the dev was considering winding down their product and business due to unsustainability.

No matter how harsh the customer is, they’re taking their time away from doing other things to let you know.

  1. They want to or are considering using your product.
  2. There is a problem or feature that they need.
  3. For every one of these you receive, there’s potentially 1000s more that have simply discounted your product/service and moved on already.
8 Likes
51

Exactly that is @Geoff_Perlman the problem: you think that only a few active users are spending time on support forum. But our analysis showed me, that many people are searching for xojo Tips and tricks cause the documentation is often not good to understand. What is normal, by the way cause nobody is able to do a documentation in a lightweight way. Often the questions are answered from offline reading. That’s how we where working in the beginning also.
I started to rant and to complain because there was the need to and not because I can not work without the forum. But for many people the forum is a good source for ways to get out of problems modelling their applications. I guess this makes it even more complex. Yes we all are spending our time. And we like to spend it. Because we like the product and we believe in the product itself. So help us to stay over the time.
And yes, there are many people coming and going. But also in this case we need the people to help. Even going people witch are changing their tools will sometimes help other users. And even ex xojo employees are helping because they asre believing in xojo. That’s making it a bit less complex. Trust me.

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52

Don’t trust Germans! :wink:

I love circular logic …

[P.S. in case you don’t get it: I am German :de:]

53

In case you don’t get: I am also as a german-israeli Guy I have the same problems. You should never believe them. They have no Idea, eating Kraut and wearing Lederhosen. All days long, all the time. That’s the nice part. I am also from the north of germany where we have more cows than humans in our village. And yes, I love it. And, by the way: we have the slowest internet on planet and if you look you will get out: the toilets are small houses in the garden with A heart formed hole in the door. Is it that what you wanted to tell???

54

Nope. It was a play on Epimenides’ paradox … but then I’m easily amused …

P.S. The solution to the paradox is well worth reading!

55

OP asked What are your 2 cents ?

That is a way open question in the already Off-Topic category. if you are looking for an excuse to lock the thread and/or delete it using that same censorship discussed in here, DONT, just do it, it will not surprise anyone.

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56

It this thread is not deleted, This post should be marked as answer!

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57

In an effort to bring this thread back on topic, and preventing it from being locked (because I have found this thread very informative), I can give my perspective as a new Xojo user.

I have used many development tools on many platforms, from Mainframe to Microcontroller, throughout my career as a programmer. Like others have said, no environment is perfect, and no developer with a large code base likes breaking changes.

I appreciate a forum where open discussion can take place, and a thread such as this one can give me a perspective of where Xojo stands and how it is perceived by longtime users. An open forum can be a double edged sword for the company that provides it, but in the end is the only way to garner respect from its loyal users and advocates.

That being said, I have to say that I have been somewhat surprised by the volume of negative discussions and ‘harsh comments’. Since I am planning on adopting Xojo (and hoping that it fits as a full time professional development platform for me) I have done an excessive amount of reading on this forum (for quite a long time, even though I have only registered on the forum recently). As a result, I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what Xojo is and what it is not, as well as what Geoff and his team are trying to accomplish.

Other potential users, however, might not take as much time to research the product, and I am afraid that the volume of harsh and negative comments could put Xojo in a negative light.

After close to 30 years of working as a professional developer, Xojo is bringing me back to the time of my youth before programming was a ‘job’ and was instead something I did for fun. There are very few tools on the market (if any) that provide the functionality Xojo does, combined with rapid development and ease of development. I am looking forward to getting to know Xojo and the community better.

I do hope, for everyone’s sake though, that we can provide constructive criticism without tarnishing the product’s image. The way I go about these types of discussions, is I view the product as if it was someone’s baby (and for the creator and developer’s I believe it is true to some extent), and as a result I act accordingly.

Like I said previously, I have learned a lot from this thread - and it has helped fill in some gaps for me, like for instance the disappearance of Tim. I hope we can all learn from everything said here and move forward in a productive manner.

12 Likes
58

Amen to that … that sucker compiled tight code and without 100MB chunks of libraries (a piece). But that is unfortunately the past. All we can do is keep moving forward looking for the best tool for the job. This tool is but one hammer; and as much as some would like to make it into a Swiss utility knife, no amount of lipstick is going to change what it is.

59

I’m sorry but when you use the fact that Cinema 4d has been bug free for years you make your arguement weak. I’ve been a user of this product for years and it’s had more than its fair share of delays and bugs.

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60

Well, while you all can report bugs, Xojo Inc. has to select which one they can fix.
For my own reports, I have about 1350 of those. Over a quarter got fixed/resolved/implemented, which I see as a good quote. But it takes an effort to explain an issue, help to get it reproduced and get attention and thus priority.

And it has helped in past to make a forum post to let others know the problem exists, start a discussion about it, which may lead to a workaround or me recognizing that I did something wrong.

Sometimes emailing someone at Xojo helped to get attention. But often they will see the forum post. Going to conferences may help to be recognized better.

So lobbying for your bug fix can help.

3 Likes