Windows vs Mac

Because they are insulted by Windows users as “falling for the hype”, “paying for the design”, etc. (yes Michael, I’m looking at you too).

Sorry guys, but you are wrong.

First of: Like me most Apple users know both MacOS and Windows, often intimately, and make an informed choice. Most often the same cannot be said for Windows users who’s experience with Macs is often zero or restricted to a very old Mac still running somewhere (while equally old Windows boxes have died a long time ago)

I accompanied about 40-50 people in their switch from Windows to Mac, and the more experience they had with Windows the longer it took them. The biggest problem was always to get that complicated way of thinking that Windows seems to install in its users out of their heads.

Secondly: Design is MUCH more than looks. It’s like those doofuses saying that Evolution is just chance when Evolution is the very opposite of chance - they have no clue what they are talking about.

As an example: look at the design of the fans in a Mac laptop: which results in MUCH quieter fans.

THAT’s what design is all about. Anyone saying silly things like “just paying for design” shows himself to be completely ignorant. Pretty much in the same class as “Xojo is just a toy language because it is Basic with Goto and such stuff”.

Thirdly: Mac users are described as “fanboys” but talk to a Windows user and Windows is the best thing since sliced bread - until a new version comes along. Then all of a sudden they talk about how bad the old version was and what utter crap. Happened with (yes, I was there) Windows 1, Windows 2, Windows 3, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Me … but not WinXP. Because VISTA was such a disaster that I recommended to everyone to NOT install it (but did they listen?). VISTA was such a disaster that Microsoft renamed ServicePack 1 to Windows 7 (internally Windows 6.1) to escape the bad reputation of VISTA and charged full price for it. Win 7 is rather nice (but still weird in that Microsoftian way). And Win8 is a disaster again (though not on the scale of VISTA).

Fourthly: I’m sick of paying the Microsoft tax. I am considered the “computer expert” in my expanded family / circle of friends. Most of them started out with Windows, and as long as a Windows PC works it is ok. And if things go wrong and you know what to do and you like to tinker that’s fine by me. But most users don’t. And it is me paying with my time for all those cheap bastards trying to save a few bucks. Supporting 40-50 people is a full-time job with Windows PCs. About 3 years ago I refused to do any more Windows maintenance. I told them “Get a Mac and I will still help you - I even help you buy one second-hand, set it up, train you.” It takes about 4-8 weeks in which people complain and wonder if they should not have stayed with Windows but afterwards every single one (except a gaming enthusiast whom I recommended against switching) said “Windows? Never again”. And funnily the most ardent ex-Windows supporters are the most rabid. Will they never learn?

Oh no, please not again.

Sorry Beatrix, but Dana send us to open a new topic :wink:

For the record: I have several PCs (for example a self-build with a 6core 3930K CPU, water cooling, Asus Rampage Extreme main board, 32 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 2 TB HD etc) and second-hand Macs (2007 24in iMac, 2009 27in iMac, 2010 17in MBP, 2011 17in MBP) myself.

NOOOOOOOOO! :slight_smile:

and that is how you get 100K+ posts on a forum :slight_smile:

Continued from above:

My “maintenance” is now practically zero, and that tallies with the experience in large corporations where Macs require much less maintenance. Which is why IT departments recommend against them. Every single company that went Mac was afterwards reducing their IT department. As IT department: would you recommend getting rid of your job?

In my experience IT departments had no use for Macs (in the pre-OS X days). They earned their money with Windows but despised it. What they loved was Linux. But then Macs went Unix, and the story changed completely. All of a sudden IT geeks could be seen with PowerBooks. And even at Microsoft conferences most of the attendees used Mac laptops.

It’s not a style thing. It’s a “Value for money” thing. It’s a “It just works” thing.

In my mind it’s a smart thing.

I’m glad someone took the time to spell out all my feelings inside.
Thank you, Markus.

My writing rang a bell, so I checked an old blog of mine and this is what I wrote four years ago:

PC or Mac? What would you advice
18/08/10 16:01

Over the last three years I accompanied about 40 people from Win to Mac - mostly friends and family, mainly because at some point I refused to do the free support for them. My argument: “You save a few bucks, and I pay for it with my time. You want my help in the future - then get a Mac. Only thing is - if you get a Mac then you won’t need much help anymore.”

The experience is always the same. For 4-6 weeks they complain and wonder if they should have stuck with Win, afterwards they say “Windows? Never again.”

With Macs I have practically nothing in support to do. What little support is needed can easily be done via iChat (video conferencing build into Macs, quality is miles better than Skype, and with the other’s permission you can simply take over the other computer and show how something should be done).

Hardest support case in the last three years: my father (at 76) on his old iMac G4 managed to drag his complete iPhoto library - all 32,000 pictures - to the desktop. There was 0k left in hard disk space, the desktop was completely frozen - but for two weeks (until I could come round to fix it) everything else just continued to work. He browsed the internet, did his emails, video-chatted with the rest of the family - and I still have no idea how the Mac managed that (for example where were the emails saved? There was no space!?). I have to admit I was impressed - and computers do not impress me lightly.

Some install Win via Bootcamp, just in case. In all cases I’m asked after a few months to take the Bootcamp partition off as they “don’t use Win anymore”

Basically it is easier to get a Mac if you have not used Win before, as you have to unlearn the crooked way of thinking that Win employs.

As for programming and testing: I recommend VMware Fusion or Parallels Desktop which manage about 80% of the speed of running Win natively on a Mac via Bootcamp, though you might be okay with the free VirtualBox. You can install several separate guest systems (like WinXP, Vista, Win7, Ubuntu, RedHat, etc) which is great for testing.

Otherwise - enjoy it. The difference comes down to something very simple. People use their PCs, but they love their Macs. So unless you are a hardcore gamer - get a Mac.

Muted :confused:

Hi, Marcus
I d’ont understand all this post in last time.
I like develop for windows, Mac os and linux, xojo is made to develop in all 3 systems, I think it’s best to respect everyone as he likes and does not denigrate others because they simply like a different system.
Just concentrate on helping others is the best option and not frustrate and denigrate others.
Not worth wasting time with people who do not understand that what one not like hard like the other, is lost time.
Greetings to all, and concentrate better in solving programming problems.

The first ICT employer I started to work for in 1984 had Lisa’s and later Macintoshes.
Since then I’m an Apple user.
All the employers I have worked for since then were using MS-Dos, Windows 3, Windows XP, …
Name a Windows version and have I used it.
So I certainly can say that I 've worked a lot with Windows, but after all these years I still prefer my Mac.

Most of the time I don’t like working with full screen programs.
Because of this one of the most annoying things for me in Windows, after all these years, is the fact that each window has it’s own menubar.
Every time I have to look where the menubar for the active window is.
It drives me nuts. :s

I remember back in the '80ties when an Apple reseller emerged in the city I lived. Apple! That word was something magic. The shopping window was filled with Lisa and Macintosh (I believe) models. They also sold software like Aldus etc. Nobody knew what software was anyway in those days. One day I went inside and a guy asked me if I had an ‘appointment’? Hell no.

They refused to help me. Maked me laugh. You had to make an appointment by phone before they would consider helping you.

That brought back memories of my purchasing an Aeron chair. When I went to the local retailer and did not have an appointment, the place was a big office and forms place, I waited about 15 minutes for a salesman to help me. I ended up buying mail order. Now I buy most everything mail order.


I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone who is a Windows fanboy or Mac fanboy to switch teams. I am Windows because that is what I’ve used for ages, I am comfortable with it, it works for me and that is what I develop for because that is what my company uses. It meets and exceeds my company’s needs, there is no need to change for me. There just is not a compelling case for switching. We can argue all day about total cost of ownership but our PCs rarely break and when they do they can be fixed or replaced easily and cost efficiently.

I know there are many converts from Windows to Mac on here touting about nightmarish support and maintenance and how they loathed supporting their company or family that used Windows because they are always breaking. But for every one of those there are 10 that have no issues and the stuff just works. If it didn’t Apple would seize on the opportunity and they would own market share. The market would respond and usually does when there is better mousetrap.

If you want to pay more for a quite fan or better hardware and “intuitive design” that is your call, your money and I wouldn’t blame anyone for that if that is important to them but the truth is not everyone see values in that.

If loving your computer is important then yes, but the majority of people are also okay just using it and getting on to something else. But remember, love and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and although one may find something objectionable another might see beauty and value.

There is room for both products because there are customers that see value in both offerings, just like there is Ford and Toyota and GM and BMW and etc. etc. All those companies are in business because some consumers, regardless of how “ill informed” they are see some value in their product offerings. To have BMW customers stand up and say all the Toyota customers are ignorant, uniformed is a bit… well, I’ll just leave it at that…

Is it that hard to believe that many users are happy with PCs and Windows and they don’t need rescue from their eternal hell or that they are too stupid to realize they are living in PC hell?

I have to go now… one of my colleagues has a blue screen of death on their PC I have to fix :-0…

Go install Linux on it :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=109201:@Joseph Evert]Markus,
I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone who is a Windows fanboy or Mac fanboy to switch teams.[/quote]
It wasn’t my intention.

I was answering to some comments in a locked thread by some Windows users basically denigrating Mac users as “falling for the hype”, “paying for design”, etc. and in general treating Mac users as users without any clue about computers which are barely able to use a mouse and run away screaming from the terminal.

If you are happy with Windows then I have no problem with it. Just don’t denigrate Mac users. Because Mac users usually know both Worlds.

And it should give those ignorant Windows users pause that the vast majority of people (not all!) knowing both systems prefer Macs. But for some reason it doesn’t.

But that’s the thing, you’re not actually paying more. If you bought a PC with the same specification hardware, you’d pay the same. Recently I read an article that broke down the new Mac Pro (dustbin style) to see what a ‘normal’ PC would cost with the same spec. The Mac Pro actually came out a couple of hundred dollars cheaper than a directly equivalent PC.

I didn’t pay extra for my Mac because of a quiet fan or intuitive design. I paid for high quality hardware that can run OSX, Windows and Linux. If I was a Windows man I would have still spent the same to get a PC of similar spec. This machine is my living and I have to work with it 10+ hours a day. No matter what the OS is, I would have still paid for decent hardware anyway. There’s no way I’d skimp on something I’m so dependant on.

I think that’s what annoys many Mac users. They are labelled as fashionistas who only buy for the design, whereas Windows users are tech savy and smart with their cash. I’ve used just about every OS out there at one point or another (except BeOS, although my Raspberry Pi may have that soon! - Haiku anyway!) and I’ve settled on OSX and Linux as my OSes of choice.

At the risk of getting shouted at I am going to stick my oar in here in support of Markus’s statements.

I started in the computer world in the 70s with the Tandy TRS 80 machine. That was my first “real” computer but I had been playing with programmable calculators for a little while before that. It was using the Tandy machine that enabled me to start programming to make it do things!

I was lucky enough to be working for a software house at the time that the IBM PCs were introduced to the market and I was lucky enough to be one of the first people to have a computer on my desk. I still remember, very clearly, the excitement as it was unpacked and put together for me. The two pieces of software that were installed (not installed, per se, but I had floppy disks to use) were WordStar and VisiCalc. Connected to a dot matrix printer and, boy, was I ready to go!

From that point onwards I have been through virtually every single iteration of DOS and Windows, the last being Windows XP. I was a Borland Pascal programmer and have been through most of the Borland products. I also spent some time working with the original Visual Basic. I loved Delphi and was very happy in that environment.

It never crossed my mind to look at the Mac computer as, professionally, I wrote programs using Delphi and the target was always Windows. As I was working abroad every single week I would walk through Heathrow airport, stop at Dixons, and look longingly at the pretty Mac computers on display.

In about 2009 I decided to buy a MacBook Pro as a Christmas present myself. There was no other reason other than the fact that they look pretty and I just wanted one! I had no idea what I would use it for as, as a Windows user, I believed that there was no software that I knew that would run on the machine. Also, at that time, I had made a significant financial investment in software for my windows machines over the years. I had no desire to reinvent that particular wheel.

What pushed me over the top to buy the MacBook Pro was there was a special offer to purchase Microsoft Office with the new MacBook for the princely sum of £29.99. Professionally all of the files that I transferred to and from any of my clients were either Word or Excel and this special offer on the software made me decide to invest in my Christmas present.

At the time of buying the MacBook Pro I had three laptop computers and one desktop. The desktop and a laptop stayed at home and I had a laptop on my desk at work and a further laptop in my apartment where I was living abroad. This was because I was really lazy and did not wish to lug a laptop around with me wherever I was going. I had an iPad and iPhone at the time as well!

When I started the MacBook Pro I expected it to be a long process but within 10 minutes it had installed all the base software, connected to my Wi-Fi and downloaded the updates it needed and was ready. The longest process was installing Microsoft office which, from DVDs, was a relatively long and slow process – exactly what I was used to on the windows machine so that did not register with me as being an issue.

I copied over my backup documents folder and found that Mac office open every single file with no problems and the display was significantly better than I was used to on my laptops. By the end of Christmas day I was hooked!

I wanted a development environment like Delphi but, unfortunately, that was not available on the Mac. It was then that I came across Realbasic. This is the software that I use now for cross-platform development.

Since pressing the start button on my MacBook Pro I never opened any of my other machines again. All three laptops were given away to various children of mine who have all subsequently moved onto Macs themselves and my desktop machine I got rid of very quickly and replaced with an iMac.

I will never go back to Windows.

Twenty-five years plus on DOS and Windows versus five years on Mac and Mac is a clear winner for me.

I don’t think most users are going to sit down and compare specs. Sure, I have to pay the same on the PC to get the same spec, and I’d expect that too, why wouldn’t it be the same +/-. I am not sure even how to do that with a fan or that the average user can decipher specs between a PC and Mac. So the processor speed on the Mac is .2 ghz faster, how much does that matter? Oh, but the hard drive speed is faster on the pc - how can you tell unless you’re a guru? Most users don’t need the spec that the minimum Mac has for what they use - email, web browsing, facebook, pictures, word processing, etc. etc. So they only end up looking at total price and end up with the $600 laptop or desktop that does what they need. I might agree if everything was equal everyone might own Macs, but it is not equal and there are still a lot of people who DO prefer Windows.

Fair enough, but I would say what annoys Windows users is that they beaten over the head to drink the Mac cool aid when they are perfectly happy with what they are using. The Mac users think we are in some nightmarish hell that we need to be rescued from and we are blinded by the dark side and it is their sole purpose to save us from despair by cramming an Apple down our throat.

If that is how you feel then that is the right decision for you then of course that is what you should do. Who could argue with your logic? But is your assumption that your counter part would “skimp” on hardware just because they choose to use Windows? Because I would make the same decision as you and buy good hardware for a nice Windows machine.

Diversity is beautiful!!

It’s not my assumption that people will skimp just because they chose Windows, although I have lost count the number of times I’ve had people bragging to me about how little they paid for their new laptop. I know people will pay good money for good hardware for all OSes.

I don’t judge anyone on their choice of OS, each to their own. I am however a little fed up with the jibes I receive from others for my choice, or more to the point insinuations about the reasons for my choice.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I personally find that I get more done with a Mac. I spend less time managing the OS and more time actually working. As I work for myself, every hour is important to me and time spent reinstalling or managing an OS is all time I’m not getting paid. As I also said previously, I’m not married to OSX either. If an OS arrives that lets me get more done, with less hassle than I can with OSX, I’d happily switch. For now though, OSX is the path of least resistance for me.

I’m not encouraging anyone to drink the Cool Aid. I’m British, I’ve never even seen a can of Cool Aid, not matter drank any! But what I’d love is to not have people insinuating I’m an idiot for spending over the top for my computer or that it’s only a fashion accessory (not by people here, more in my everyday dealings with others in IT). Especially by those who have only ever used one OS and are some of the biggest fan boys I’ve ever seen. But hey, it’s only cool to call Apple users fan boys! :wink: