Sigh. That was written last year (as stated!), and the upgrade offer specifically excluded iOS then, and Pi wasn’t even mentioned anywhere.
Yes, I know, it is difficult to keep up with all those licence changes
P.S. Also wenn ich ein Angebot zum Upgraden meiner Desktop Lizenz bekomme hab ich kein Anrecht es anzunehmen solange das nicht spezifisch in meiner Lizenz aufgeführt ist?
Und hat aber sowas von gar nix mit Kulanz zu tun.
Ich bin drauf gespannt was mein Schulfreund sagt.
[quote=229185:@Markus Winter]Sigh. That was written last year (as stated!), and the upgrade offer specifically excluded iOS then, and Pi wasn’t even mentioned anywhere.
Yes, I know, it is difficult to keep up with all those licence changes
:-P[/quote]
So you copied your message from last year and posted it again just for effect? Why not just add your new thoughts to the end of your previous thread so that the chronology is obvious?
No. I didn’t post it last year. I posted it in a parallel thread about Xojo Support https://forum.xojo.com/27633-xojo-customer-service-props when Norman said he had never heard of anyone having a negative experience with support. So I said mine wasn’t too good. To be honest, I had actually seriously considered dropping Xojo for good because my license was treated differently.
So instead of writing it all again I dug out what I had written from my long-term storage and posted it in its own thread as I feel people need to know what Geoff said about licences, upgrades, and special offers.
I’m only posting this for clarification because it seems there continues to be confusion. Upgrades are not calculated differently based upon what you paid. If you have a Desktop license you purchased from a sale or just any regular day at full price and you want to upgrade, the VALUE remaining in a DESKTOP license is deducted from a full price Xojo Pro. The website upgrade calculator does not look at your order history and calculate the upgrade based upon what you paid, it just looks at the licenses you wish to upgrade and gives you the price. Perhaps in the future you can look at upgrades again.
Let’s say I somehow get a sweet deal on a desktop license, for example, and it costs $25. A month later I decide to upgrade to Pro, do you think I should get 11 months worth of a normal price desktop license cost subtracted from the cost of a Pro license?
Xojo Inc basically give you a credit towards the new license, the value of which is calculated using whatever you paid in the first place. This seems perfectly fair to me.
To give you an imperfect analogy, if I buy a TV from Walmart on Black Friday at 50% off and go back a few weeks later to return the item and get a credit towards a different item, I would expect Walmart to give me a credit based on what I actually paid, not on what the normal price is.
I’m sorry but I have to side with Xojo Inc on this one, I think their policy is perfectly rational.
EDIT: After seeing Dana’s response it seems I’ve got it wrong too. Now I’ve absolutely no idea how it’s calculated.
I’m as confused as Marcus now. So what is the value based on? If I buy a license in a sale on the same day as someone who buys it at full price, and later we both, on the same day, go to upgrade, we’ll be quoted the same price??
To put it simply, yes.
The upgrade system uses the price of Xojo license as currently stated in the store, it has absolutely no idea what you paid for it. If you have a Desktop license you purchased from a Black Friday sale, via MacHeist or at full price and you want to upgrade, the value remaining in that Desktop license is deducted from a full price Xojo Pro. Bought a $99 license yesterday and want to upgrade to a $299 license? Sure, the upgrade cost is $200. Bought a $99 license 6 months ago and want to upgrade? Sure, the upgrade cost is $250. Got a new $299 Desktop license from MacHeist for like 25 cents today and want to upgrade to Xojo Pro ($699)? Sure, the upgrade cost is $400.
You had it right you are just mixing upgrade and returns, they are different. Obviously, if you take advantage of our 90 day return policy, you get a 100% refund of what you paid- as in your TV example. But for upgrades we give everyone the same benefit - erring on the side of the user. So those MacHesit people who paid 25 cents for a Xojo license and then decided to upgrade - They got the sweetest deal ever!
But that’s not what I was told last year: According to Geoff Perlman, CEO of Xojo Inc (and I quote verbatim):
I think I see where the problem is. You are using current pricing to calculate the value of your keys. Thats not how we calculate them. We calculate the value of keys based upon what the customer paid for them and how much time remains before they expire.
Then it could be simpler. There seems to be no problem other than Geoff might have misspoke last year?
Markus, I don’t know when or why you talked with Geoff about your license and upgrading. I can say this not how we calculate upgrades and in my 7 years here, I cannot recall ever calculating upgrades like that. Reading this, it’s clear to me that Geoff was not thinking about sales when he wrote you this. Geoff is our Founder and CEO, he’s big picture and, as in most companies, the CEO doesn’t handle daily sales and orders. I know you and I have many, many email conversations about upgrading your licenses. If you want to continue to discuss this, please quote my emails to you or someone else in the customer service department.
Actually, the emails went between me, Geoff, and Customer service (you and Dana):
on the 11th of Sep 2014, 6:38 pm (bold emphasis is mine):
[i]Hi Markus,
I think I see where the problem is. You are using current pricing to calculate the value of your keys. Thats not how we calculate them. We calculate the value of keys based upon what the customer paid for them and how much time remains before they expire. For example, if 6 months ago you purchased a Xojo Desktop license for $300, its now worth $150 because it will expire in another 6 months.
Your 3 keys are the result of a Real Studio Pro upgrade you purchased in April of last year. Those 3 keys have a remaining value of 363 euros total. As Alyssa has pointed out, with current sale prices and your discount for a review, the best option for you would be to combine those 3 keys into an upgrade to Xojo Pro. After applying the remaining value of 363 euros and including the 3 sale discounts totaling 40% off, the additional cost would be 217 euros. That would get you Xojo Pro with 12 months of updates. Once done, the 3 licenses would then be canceled since they have been upgrade to a Xojo Pro license.
Let us know what youd like to do.[/i]
So last year my THREE years of Desktop / Database / Console had a value of only 363 according to Geoff.
So he clearly used what I actually paid to calculate how much I have to pay for an upgrade.
As I said: in essence it was a return of the discount I got by using a promotion to buy.
As for the rest of the calculation and why it would cost me dearly - see the first post.
Markus, You paid 160 Euros in 2012 and you have Desktop, Console and Database licenses until valid 2017. All the canceled quotes in your account that Katherine or I put together since 2013 take the full value of the remaining licenses (based on the price of the license and never taking into account that you bought those at a significant discount originally) and apply them to a new Xojo Pro. I can’t tell you exactly what someone else meant when they wrote you years ago or how some sale or another we offered years ago effected this. What I can say is that we’ve put together 4 quotes for you combining various sale and additional discounts to upgrade to Pro and you have not taken us up on them. You have been treated no different than any Xojo customer. I can say that I have personally offered you additional discounts, which you have chosen not to take advantage of.
Geoff misspeaking once I could understand, Alyssa, Dana, Geoff all misspeaking several times I doubt very much.
However I think there might also be a bug in the algorithm they use to calculate the value of your licences.
Well you either need Xojo or you don’t. If you are willing to let your license lapse out of principle then it sounds like you don’t.
Ah, Katherine. That was the name I couldn’t remember.
And that is where the bug is!
How was a three year Desktop/Database/Console licence worth 363 last year when a 12 month Desktop licence alone was $299? Same for Database & Console.
That is where my example with the shares comes in. You increased the prices, but based your calculations of the remaining value on the old prices which were no longer valid, not on the value that the remaining licences have as active licences.
What an active licence is worth depends on the current price for a licence, not on whatever the price was in the past.
Great contribution [rolls eyes]
You did read that I have active licenses till Sept 2017?
But yes, there are alternatives that I follow, mainly Python as it is big in Biological Research, and Swift as it is likely to go cross-platform next year after Apple open-sources it. But that’s for another discussion.
The bigger issue IN THIS THREAD might be how the algorithm calculates the value of the remaining licence, and accordingly how much users are charged for upgrades. If my case is an indication then people might have been asked to pay more than they should.
Saying that, I fully acknowledge that Xojo can use whatever algorithm they like - it just has to be transparent to the user what he is asked to pay for. In my case it made no sense at all.
Wrong.