Look, Brad, just because some of the folks on this forum think that Brad Hutchings is really the one on the left instead of the right in your avatar, don’t let that bother you! 
My LIKE for this thread: Bill Gookin “At some point I have to trust someone… :)” How true, in plug-in’s and in philosophy.
Though it is a plugin, MBS isn’t just a plugin, it is sort of a abstraction layer program that wraps many different coded solutions under a system that links in tightly with REAL/Xojo. In some ways MBS is a coded-from-scratch solution, but in many ways MBS really is a project that encapsulates already-coded solutions (almost always written in C/C++) and links it up with REAL/Xojo.
I really appreciate that REAL/Xojo is open-ended and the plugin capability allows many solutions beyond REAL/Xojo’s capacity.
As for Christian bringing it up on forums, I don’t care what his motives are. Who cares. Help is help is help is help. I’m just not that cynical to think that just because you are a company that you are acting out of corrupted self-interest and that you don’t care about the final results of the customer, nor take any responsibility for it. In fact, capitalism is a great self-corrective measure to keep companies inline that way. If Christian cares to mention his products as solution for problems, he’d better be correct AND follow through, which in most/all instances he has. Perhaps BECAUSE he profits, it gives him greater incentive to help. How socialistic are we getting where we think the opposite is true?
Double-edged sword …
I would prefer that the pluguins could buy both encrypted and source where possible.
When I sell my applications I need to have full control over the source code.
I hope all the plugins out there don’t get Xojo to rest … “there is already a solving on this issue, we delaying it”
Example:
It had been possible to find the names of network connections directly in Xojo if there was a plugin that does this.
Some vendors offer the plugins (or controls) in 2 versions. encrypted and unencrypted (with full source). If I am developing something I want to maintain in the future I tend to buy the unencrypted version. Not because I want to muck with it but to be able to fix thing if the supplier goes away.
I tend to buy plugins (or controls) to fill a gap that Xojo doesnt fill OR (big O R ) doesnt fill very well. If I could code what the plugin gives in a day then I probably wont get the plugin but if it takes me days/weeks, the plugin becomes a better ROI on my money & time.
so that is where I stand.
Could not say it any better … maybe because I’m right next door to you in South Carolina, we think alike?
I have many wishes for Xojo and one of them is I would like more plugin choices. The market is very small and there is not enough choice. Not enough choice makes the relationship between the expensive IDE and the expensive add-ons available (some sold on xojo.com!) suspect to a new user. They aren’t entirely sure what they will need and the add-ons feels like a new user tax.
As far as pricing goes I think encrypted modules are great at free or < $50. I see encrypted versions mainly as just a convenience and marketing tool. I’m offering my proprietary stack to others while remaining its exclusivity in our projects for our consulting customers. It’s also a way to show potential customers the kinds of components we can build and include in their projects if they engage us.
If someone else wants to benefit from that expertise investment then I treat it like a consulting project and charge accordingly for unencrypted.
[quote=71980:@Phillip Zedalis]As far as pricing goes I think encrypted modules are great at free or < $50. I see encrypted versions mainly as just a convenience and marketing tool. I’m offering my proprietary stack to others while remaining its exclusivity in our projects for our consulting customers. It’s also a way to show potential customers the kinds of components we can build and include in their projects if they engage us.
If someone else wants to benefit from that expertise investment then I treat it like a consulting project and charge accordingly for unencrypted.[/quote]
Back when I was offering a encrypted version version of my listbox subclass (I think I asked $35) all of my sales were for the much more expensive source code version… It seems in this market , those that are price sensitive are VERY price sensitive ( I assume they are the ones that don’t make money from Xojo - and I understand that very well!)
When I lost all my registration code from a disk crash (My backup drive had died a couple of weeks before and I had not yet replaced it) , I decided it was not worth the bother to recreate it and stopped offering the encrypted version for sale.
I’ve avoided weighing in on this primarily because the last thread got a little…warm…but I should say something being a “plugin” author. (Technically Web Custom Controls is a set of non-encrypted classes and modules.)
I’ve never had the impression that Christian, Brad, or anyone else was being pushy or annoying when mentioning that their plugins could solve a problem. I hope that I have not come off that way.
I know I have avoided answering with my own product when the poster’s question included “and no plugins.” I think I have posted any way where a thread ended up with multiple people asking about the same problem with no good solutions offered. And that gets to the heart of the problem with the “no plugins” request: while the original poster may not want to hear about commercial solutions, other people might. And some of those people might already have a license and not realize their problem is solved.
This was an excellent point brought up by Brad. Like Brad, I’ll read Christian’s posts just to learn about the many things MBS can do. While my product isn’t nearly as large as his, I have seen a thread trying to grapple with a solution only to realize one of the thread participants was a WCC license holder who therefore had the solution already. This is something Christian in particular has to think about. If there’s a thread about some issue that MBS can solve it’s a good bet that some of the participants wondering how to solve it already own an MBS license. They just don’t realize the solution is there.
I’m not going to pretend that there’s not an obvious motive for sales. But sales encourage further development and new cool stuff. Same as they do with Xojo (and Apple and Microsoft). And all of us, Christian especially, try to be helpful. I know I’ve made posts where I’ve said “Web Custom Controls can do this with all these cool features…but there’s also this free way to do it.” I’ve seen Christian and Brad offer free advice many times, sometimes free code. I try to help as well, and I’ve coded solutions to issues raised on the forums which I then published as open source under a BSD license.
I think some posters fear that if a commercial answer is offered to their question it will end the discussion. That is not what I’ve observed. If lots of people have ideas about the problem, they post regardless. If no one knows how to solve it, you’re not getting responses, and that commercial answer you preempted may be the only one available. I don’t think anyone avoids posting a free option because it might cost a plugin author a sale. We don’t do that ourselves.
Back when I was offering a encrypted version version of my listbox subclass (I think I asked $35) all of my sales were for the much more expensive source code version…
I initially struggled with the decision of encrypting classes. My experience with Fireye Software’s PDF Classes (which should be coming back from the dead) pushed me to include the full source for Web Custom Controls. I haven’t regretted it at all.
Christian is quite obviously committed to his product and isn’t going any where. But I understand why Xojo users would be nervous about basing their products around 3rd party code which could break or disappear. In fairness, we face that risk from all sides, even Apple and Microsoft (they’re not likely to disappear, but they have deprecated how many APIs?). I for one don’t plan on going any where. But full source offers peace of mind, flexibility, and something to learn from.
Surely a solution would be for the plugin vendors to offer that they will release the full source code in the event that they decide to drop support. Maybe make that part of the licence agreement.
You’ll pay more for that explicit promise. If you want such a term practically enforceable, periodically verifiable, etc., you will pay a lot more. When “exit” is not an option, perverse incentives always emerge for the other party. If this type of license term were a requirement or expectation in this market for the size it is, I wouldn’t play.
I think it would be healthy for the community to have more choices.
Someone should write some
Agreed. Logistically and legally it’s a lot easier to simply offer a full source license option if possible.
If someone wants to get source code access in case MBS plugin support disappear they should contact us.
[quote=71866:@Don Lyttle]Wish I’d done that to begin with … actually, I had a specific need that drove me to get the MBS JPG, PNG, and CURL plugs individually first … and then came another need … and another need … and real soon I kicked myself in the butt for not having gotten the whole thing to begin with. Learned my lesson and didn’t fool around when I got Einhugur … got the entire thing at once … and numerous times have been rewarded for that decision.
Probably the same thing with people buying Xojo licences … they get only the Desktop or some other singular option for instance and then see what things like container controls, SQL databases, web edition, etc. etc. etc. will do for them and regret that they didn’t get the Pro version to start.[/quote]
Not me !
I started with REALbsic 1.0 (at $100), then goes Pro, then goes Enterprise, then goes back to Standard.
I never go to Console nor Web. I do not need the current Pro either !
[quote=71875:@Norman Palardy]Client restrictions - i.e. we have to own 100% of the code that goes into the solution (including code for plugins)
[/quote]
In my case what I code for the company I work for (a Top 10 Fortune 500 company) I can get away with Xojo but not with plugins unless I can purchase the source for those plugins and thus, own it locally.
For work-related programs I only use plug-ins I can purchase as source code (I won’t usually compile them myself and just use the binary, but I’m required the source in the repositories just in case).
For my own programs I haven’t avoided plug-ins explicitly but also have ended up using very few (I used to use the heck out of Einhugur’s eCrypt-it but this has become less necessary as time goes by) since they tend to be simpler or I just don’t have time constraints which mean I can take my time trying to get stuff done myself (which I enjoy).
If the mpv guys end up releasing their library I may have to start lobbying Christian to take a look at it, since he’s already got the experience (from LibVLC) and I wouldn’t touch a library like that wih a ten-foot pole if I can pay someone to do it for me 
The Xojo dev platform is one of the platforms where we actually need plug-ins for various task.
The purpose of plug-ins is to bring something that are missing or are weak areas in the dev platform.
Plug-ins save time and we can easily find out that the ROI is acceptable in short time.
For VB.NET/VB6 I use only plug-ins from larger vendors. Indeed, this is the weak part for the Xojo dev platform, i.e the vendors are individuals or small companies.
The question to Brad, Christian et al should be: who can give me support if You’re not available? That question should be answered in a straight way.
I don’t like plugins because my success is tied to the fortune of the company that writes it.
I have been coding long enough to know that very good, very well meaning companies go away and I have lots of code that I have to go back and replace.
They don’t intent to leave the user holding the bag: but they go broke. The programmer gets killed. I have even been told that what I was doing was against Islam and the Pakistani team was scared of working with us anymore. (We write code for insurance companies and Insurance is an issue…)
Its not just bad things. If XYZ got a billion dollars to sell there stuff, or ABC wants to retire after 56 years of work. Where does that leave me? Heck I was writing 4D code and Geoff left us to start Xojo! He dint leave us High and dry, but My point is I can’t fault him for leaving 4D. (As a friend I was happy he did) But it could have left us in a bad spot.
I have seen people escrow their code: But who really wants to get down into the C source code to fix a widget?
Yes, Xojo could go Kaput. But less likely that One man Plug in shop. Ill take that risk.
[quote=72157:@Dennis Wallentin]The question to Brad, Christian et al should be: who can give me support if You’re not available? That question should be answered in a straight way.
[/quote]
If you need code level support, you’ll pay hourly for it. So long as money has value, you should be OK.
Jay, we can talk in Las Vegas about it 