Sounds like Xojo might want to see if they could license that code… It would give Xojo a very full featured PDF functionality!!!
- Karen
[quote=71815:@Christian Schmitz]If needed you could always ask for a source code license. But so far in 10+ years nobody asked for one.
Just some asked for getting source in case of plugins stop being supported, so they could fix problems themselves.
[/quote]
Especially when you’re working with developers who will give you the time of day on a forum, everything eventually has a price (in a good way). If a license or configuration doesn’t meet your needs, try starting a discussion with that developer about it.
[quote=71847:@Christian Schmitz]
And I can’t understand people who don’t want to use whatever tools are available.[/quote]
Cost
Open code
Learning
Client restrictions - i.e. we have to own 100% of the code that goes into the solution (including code for plugins)
There’s a host of reasons people might not use a plugin
Hey, and thanks everyone for responding while I slept. This round world is a cool thing.
[quote=71818:@Ulrich Bogun]and mostly that I (considering myself still quite a beginner) want to get a grasp of what things are doing and be able to figure out all that nifty declare stuff on my own in the nearer future. A plug-in gives no insight to what its doing, therefore my knowledge wont increase when using them.
[/quote]
Nifty declares don’t cover the whole picture of plugins. For the portion they do cover, they’re much more work to implement and maintain than a plugin. APIs change, and these APIs are typically expressed in C, with styles that vary by vendor and package. There is most certainly room for an “MBS of declares”, encrypted RS/Xojo classes that declare into everything, perhaps even with an unencrypted source code option. That it hasn’t happened on MBS scale in 13+ years is instructive.
Well hopefully contribute my little experience in this case.
Now I do not use PLUGINS more. . .
Because a few years I used 2 plugins from a supplier who just stopped support for those plugins and after some time came out in the market, it left me with serious problems and had to contact him directly he refused even though closed the deal to sell me the access code to the plugin.
To end the story, I was 8 months unable to update my program in my clients own way to develop a solution to the issue, it brought me HUGE financial problems and intend to never go through that again.
[quote=71847:@Christian Schmitz]And I can’t understand people who don’t want to use whatever tools are available.
[/quote]
That’s why I asked the question. There are strong feelings on this. With those feelings grouped together, maybe you and I and other plugin devs can figure out if they are things we can address or just feelings that will linger. My own view is that there’s a lot of “us v. them” in this equation, and some accessibility and frank discussion can pipe that down a bit. Working with dogs, my go-to conflict resolver is get them walking in the same direction rather than facing off. Occasionally, it works with people too.
[quote=71879:@Paulo Vargas]Because a few years I used 2 plugins from a supplier who just stopped support for those plugins and after some time came out in the market, it left me with serious problems and had to contact him directly he refused even though closed the deal to sell me the access code to the plugin.
To end the story, I was 8 months unable to update my program in my clients own way to develop a solution to the issue, it brought me HUGE financial problems and intend to never go through that again.
[/quote]
First off, that vendor is not me and it’s not Christian. I empathize with your situation. There was a pretty kick-butt set of PDF classes sold by a young man who chose college and college life over us :-). I used these for several years in a product that let kids make and share picture storybooks. Maintenance issues with the classes began appearing about the time that customer was shutting down active development, so I didn’t have to scramble for a replacement. In that product, we also QuickTime on Mac and Windows to create movie versions of the picture story book, complete with animated page flipping and mutli-lingual recorded/spoken audio. If that product were alive today, that key feature would be a giant condundrum this month with Xojo removing QuickTime in 2014r1 (and of course, Apple deprecating it on Mac and Windows). So you can end up in this kind of situation from many angles, including those you trust most.
I truly understand your feeling, Paulo. Been there … done that … got the T-Shirt to prove it! My biggest such “defining moment” was some years back when I used to do the majority of my programming for software tools in Flash Action Script. And a bunch of my apps used 3rd party components (kinda the analogous equivalent to plugins here) of which I never had a problem even though I had to make an occasional minor adjustment or two because of the various Flash version upgrades. And then, Steve Jobs went to war with Adobe and all of a sudden all my beautifully animated, highly functional tools were relegated to “static blank white boxes” on anything Apple.
But that’s life. Did I regret having used Flash for those projects? Heck no … they made me a good income for a long time. Did I have to find an alternative to my programming approach? Yep, but it wasn’t the first time and won’t be the last time I’ve had to do that in my career. It’s a condition of doing business. You move on but you don’t look back.
I can’t say I’ve noticed strong opposition to plugins per se. There was irritation expressed in the recent locked thread at being told to just use plugins, when a poster has stated they’re not interested. Honestly, that’s all I’ve noticed. I haven’t noticed this insistence to push their product from the vast majority of plugin vendors. For example, Brad, I haven’t noticed you overly and unnecessarily pushing your product.
I’ve used plugins in the past. I’ll use them again when they’re the right tool for the job. I’ve been an independent professional developer for years and there have been occasions when a client will insist on seeing and owning the source code for the product. They want to buy the whole shebang, lock, stock and barrel.
Well stated, Gavin … and very true. A time, a place, and a reason for everything. It all depends on the scenario.
I was waiting for the Byrds to break out with “to every season turn turn turn ”
[quote=71911:@Rich Hatfield]when I first read the topic description… this train wreck came to mind:
elfdata replacement[/quote]
I’d like to think that’s the exception.
add ons - plugins or encrypted code - has had this issue since the beginning as people come & go
Its not a new phenomena
Geez, Norman … you ARE as old as me! Most of these folks probably don’t even know who the Byrds are (or at best have read about them in the history books). Actually, I was thinking more like “Hey, Mr. Spaceman” …
My kids think I’m “old as dirt”
We compost a lot out here & I can show the grandkids the new dirt at the bottom of the pile when we turn it so unfortunately I’m older than dirt 
[quote=71911:@Rich Hatfield]when I first read the topic description… this train wreck came to mind:
elfdata replacement[/quote]
Well that was a disaster the day the author claimed to have reinvented computer science. A few of us tried to gently steer y’alls away from that one. BTW, I miss Charles.
He is still on the NUG.
One other issue here… When Christian posts deep links into MBS functions in response to questions, some people feel that he is “advertising at them” and they take offense. I probably get proportionally a similar number of complaints about my own link posting behavior.
When I come across Christians links on a topic I might not be familiar with, I’ll click them to see what’s in MBS and whether they might be applicable to something I’m doing now or plan to do. I already have an MBS license. For me, this is part of ongoing product education. From conversations I have had, I know that this contributes to the perception by many of his customers that he is helpful in an ongoing way.
No BS there. What some see as “offensive”, others see as ongoing helpfulness. If you discourage him from doing that (complaining, restricting topics, questioning his intentions, etc.), you reduce the “consumer value” of the forums for me and his customers (about 1/3 of us active posters by his count) and you reduce our incentive to participate and help. Look, if there’s a b---- fest every time he posts a link, I’d rather spend this sparer time on Twitter, where I get 99% love.
In short, he’s an important part of this landscape to a good chunk of us. Please consider that before getting bent over all this.
[quote=71953:@Brad Hutchings]
In short, he’s an important part of this landscape to a good chunk of us. Please consider that before getting bent over all this.[/quote]
And that there are people who would like to NOT have “oh you can do this with my plugin” posted when they ask for a solution that doesn’t include plugins.
Consideration is a two way street.