Some Xojo apps are much slower on Sierra

Targets macOS
41

I have filed an bug report with Apple.

I am actually relieved that some are not seeing the performance hit that I see. Maybe it’s a hardware-specific thing. On my Mid 2014 13" Retina MacBook Pro, my numbers are (at the default app window size) an average of 55ms on El Cap and 290ms in Sierra. That 5x difference for me translates to scrolling performance from fluid to stuttering.

Also, this is only a test app to demonstrate the performance difference. My actual apps are for more graphics intensive and the slowdown is magnified. Even at 290 ms, moving from cell to cell with the cursor takes over 1/4 second each. Not satisfying and I am hearing the grief from my long-time clients.

It’s true that the issue must lie with Apple, but as in my own code I have scrubbed through it to eek out any optimization I can. Maybe Xojo can do the same?

42

Michel, I just noticed you said ‘233 Microseconds’. I did indeed misquote that in the Titlebar. It’s actually milliseconds. So that’s almost a 1/4 second. My bad.

43

That is indeed quite different. 233 milliseconds is far from negligible.

I wonder if you could improve performances by systematically clipping each cell to avoid redrawing everything with drawcontrol when you change only one cell.

For scrolling, I wonder if it would not be possible to scroll using Canvas.Scroll, and only redraw the sole row or column that is new.

44

I do completely understand this position. I’m in the…fortunate?..position right now that my focus is on custom applications written for clients, and they are holding off on Sierra. So I get to cover my eyes, play “see no evil”, and hope that Apple fixes the problems and performance issues before a client goes through an upgrade cycle.

Speaking of which: I once joked with a client, after a .0 El Capitan disaster, that his company should just replace all their modern iMacs with old Power Mac G5’s running Leopard along with PPC abandonware freely downloaded from Macintosh Garden.

You should have seen the look he gave me. It wasn’t laughter or anger. It was a look that said “could we actually do that?”

45

I sometimes regret the nineties and Mac OS 9 …

46

Some vendors have been seeing this in non-Xojo apps.
And as Joe mentioned previously on this thread there may be some things we can do that will speed things up for specific cases.
There are a fair number of cases where the exact same calls to OS routines on Sierra are slower than on El Capitan and that we cant do anything about except report this to Apple

47

Earlier on I made a list of suggestions, one of them was to directly tap into the CoreGraphics API and compare. It resulted in almost identical results as Xojo; this test removed Xojo’s abstracted layer from the equation.

[quote=301327:@Norman Palardy]Hint : TO APPLE :stuck_out_tongue:
They really need another Snow Leopard release[/quote]
IMHO; what they really need is a new CEO that will Make the Mac “Pro” again.

Also when you move the cursor between cells make sure that you use invalidate on just the cell (the one you were in and the one you’re moving into).

canvas.invalidate( lastCell.left, lastCell.top, lastCell.width, lastCell.height, false ) canvas.invalidate( newCell.left, newCell.top, newCell.width, newCell.height, false )
Hey Tim, just for you s p a c e s right where ya hate 'em :wink:
I’m also wondering if this has something to do with Apple’s drive towards layer-backed views; which don’t offer a speed increase in drawing, but for each view the refresh is a lot less.

Direct drawing (without layers is still the fastest way), especially with large amounts of information. Tried to use a A1 sized canvas with layer backed views, it was impossible to scroll![quote=301358:@Norman Palardy]Some vendors have been seeing this in non-Xojo apps.
And as Joe mentioned previously on this thread there may be some things we can do that will speed things up for specific cases.
There are a fair number of cases where the exact same calls to OS routines on Sierra are slower than on El Capitan and that we cant do anything about except report this to Apple[/quote]
Norman and Joe, appreciate what you can do to help us.

48

Do you say that because that’s when you got into Mac development?

I don’t feel that way because I don’t see a better alternative. I’m really horrified by the direction Microsoft is taking on privacy and I never cared much for their technology. And while Linux is sound architecturally, it’s cumbersome in other ways and a very fractured ecosystem.

Apple needs a CEO who better understands their technology and who is willing to defend and support the Mac platform as a professional system, integrated with but independent of their consumer iDevices.

Basically what Sam said.

49

Apple seems to be functionally organized which means there’s no “VP of iDevices” or “VP of Mac System” etc
So its not on anyones specific job duties to see that Mac remain Pro systems etc
That might explain why there’s a lack of continuous directed energy at various things ( like all those things they’ve just “forgotten” to update over the years - displays, networking, etc)
Steve cut a lot of non-core things years ago (printers etc) but lately these seem to just have slipped off anyones radar - because there IS no one whose Job Description says “VP of peripherals”, VP of Macs" etc

It’s the most plausible explanation I’ve seen

50

Right now I’m actually excited by the direction that MS is taking, maybe not in it’s ethical departments, but certainly in it’s hardware departments.

The new Surface products are exciting IMHO. A Mobile device with 16 hour battery life, that can have the screen flipped so it can be used like an actual iPad Pro. That Surface Studio is really tempting. Again IMHO, Touch is the most user friendly and direct way of interacting with a computer, and the Windows way means you can have professional based Touch system (not a crippled iOS version).

When MS announced their new Surface products and Apple the new tbMBP, I was at a gathering of friends. Some of whom run a mobile gaming company in Taiwan.

Because the two announcements occurred at the same time, it made them reconsider using Macs for development. They started to look into using Windows, for the simple reason that a touch screen enabled Windows computer makes it easier for them to test and debug their iOS touch based games. For them, their tool of choice is interpreted and so the simulator runs on Windows.

While the boss of the company is a Mac fan, and detests actually going into Windows, even he prefers coding iOS and Android games on a Touch screen laptop that has Apple like battery life (when Apple has appeared to renounce that crown). It’s also inspired them to alter their games to run on Windows too. Which I just find funny, that Apple has allowed their iOS game makers to even consider switching to Windows for development of iOS games… Pants down much?

The more Apple pushes professionals into using platform independent tools, the more likely it is that a professional can look elsewhere and might look elsewhere, especially when the apps they’re now forced to use perform better on other platforms. A TV studio here in Taiwan got so fed up with FCP being unstable after Yosemite, they migrated to Adobe Premier, which runs much faster on Windows and now with the new tbMBP much more reliably. Some of the video guys are already using higher end Windows laptops. This is the #1 problem I see for Apple, they’re letting their faithful leave, and when they do it’s not a pleasant breakup, which influences those around them, thus slowly denting Apple’s reputation even more.

Hey Tim Cook, if you’re reading this. I’m available for hire, I might not be the best guy for the job, but I sure would like to head a new “Professional” department at Apple.

Thread unhijacked, please return to normal.

51

[quote=301372:@Sam Rowlands]
The new Surface products are exciting IMHO. A Mobile device with 16 hour battery life…[/quote]
Claimed 16 hour
So far the actual in the field tests I’ve seen have not supported this claim
Most have been in the “we get 10 hours” in real world use

However I wont dispute that the two announcements one after the other were worlds different.
Apple still not convinced of a “converged device” usage model - MS is.
So apple shipped a “laptop” in every sense
MS shipped a very different device

One the desktop Apple is again skeptical
The Surface Studio will, for some user, be a decent device despite not being a really high rez touch device or high rez screen or “Pro” machine in many ways
It really remains to be seen how well they move - and since MS rarely reports these sorts of numbers it may only be anecdotally known

52

[quote=301375:@Norman Palardy]So far the actual in the field tests I’ve seen have not supported this claim
Most have been in the “we get 10 hours” in real world use[/quote]
Same goes for the new MBP, I’m seeing developers posting 3~6 hours, seems 10 hours is watching a movie in iTunes or casual Safari use. I’ve also seen people stating that the battery in the tbMBP is 30% physically smaller than the 2015, although the processors are more refined in power consumption. They run slower than 2015, but sustain speeds over longer times, don’t crank up so fast and then have to wind down later.

Just wish they’d increased the size and included a bigger battery than before, a laptop with a claimed battery life of 16 hours or 20 hours is impressive. Heck I still get 8 hours coding (and debugging on a 2012 rMBP).

I don’t think Apple will be reporting numbers on their machines, instead they’ll publish ‘profits’ which will be slightly skewed. For the iPhone they knocked the component suppliers down by 30%, yet kept the prices the same. For their existing hardware, they’re paying less than they did when the machines first launched, yet still charge full price. Lastly the new tbMBPs are more expensive than before, so again they’re maximizing profits.

One thing I don’t understand about the new machines, is that I’m seeing people who’re having wait times of 2~6 weeks, while I’m also seeing reports of people walking into Apple stores and having a pick of what machines they want. Stores carrying stock of the new machines this quickly is not a good sign IMHO. Apple claimed that it was the most pre-ordered MBP ever.

53

I have never (and I will accentuate this) NEVER had a laptop that has so big battery time. It is very long. I think 8-10 hours is pretty much what I get out of it. Thats coding/compiling with Xojo and Xcode, browsing, encoding short snippets movies, looking at short clip movies (for my app), listening to music in the background (Apple Music/iTunes).

Trust me, the battery life of the new MBP is incredible (compared to all previous MBPs I owned).

When I see posts on some forums (Macrumor to name one), the negative comments (including short battery life) are about 99% from users who do not even have a MBP but just wants to post negative things about the new Apple products.
People who dissing the new Apple products should first test drive it before posting bogus claims. Mostly called trolls :slight_smile:

Of course the new MBP isn’t perfect but it most certainly is the best MBP released (powerful, very fast new-technology ports, fast SSD, great Retina screen with P3 support, …

BTW I am aware some MBP users have issues with the big trackpad (Palm detection is flaky when using the 3 finger dragging) and the AMD GPU issues. atm I did not encountered those issues here (yet).

54

[quote=301369:@Daniel Taylor]@Michel Bujardet I sometimes regret the nineties and Mac OS 9 …
Do you say that because that’s when you got into Mac development?
[/quote]

It was kind of a joke. I actually started with the Mac 128, before they had an actual OS. Yet Mac 0S 9 was far more stable and fair than Sierra (from what I recall, good’ol times hey).

From I understand, Tim Cook was great at procuring and finding contractors and sourcing. AFAIK he never shined in product design. Apple has become a behemoth and I doubt they have much of talents like Steve to look after Mac. Actually I still don’t stomach the explanations why Mac is stuck with gadgets such as the touchbar “because that is the way we see it”. Steve systematically looked for the forefront and I doubt extremely much he would have dared presenting such a minute innovation.

Fonctionnaires, I tell you…

Problem is, Apple is crumbling under the weight of its own structure, and badly needs a visionnaire.

Note that I am not saying current crop is bad. It is simply not up to my expectations. Not changing MBP just yet. Maybe next year, for the anniversary…

55

I agree with much of what you had to say. But they still run Windows. It would be bad enough if users only had to worry about the security risks of a poorly designed OS. But now Microsoft is in the business of recording user data at a level that would shock some spyware authors.

I do not pretend that Apple’s products are entirely secure. But when Apple has been caught recording data they should not, they have both A) offered an explanation which is plausible and innocent enough, and B) plugged the hole. They are taking security and privacy seriously. Microsoft never has.

I would love to see a macOS competitor to the Surface Pro. That is if Apple could get past the idea that it would undercut the iPad. But I would also very much like to see the MacBook Pro line return to the design just before Retina. Give me a retina screen. But give me ports. A thicker case with a bigger battery. Better cooling. A bottom plate that comes off and lets me upgrade RAM and SSD, replace the battery, and replace the fan. The only thing I can probably live without is the SuperDrive. And with the space that leaves open Apple could either include a larger battery or some innovative cooling solution that lets the CPU run at max speed for hours.

If I were in charge MacBook Air would become a competitor to Surface Pro. MacBook would be as thin and light as possible. And MacBook Pro would be what I described above.

56

Surface book is probably closest to MBP. Surface Pro is IMHO a competitor to the iPad Pro, not MBP.

Thing is, Apple still has Jony Yves, so design is still superb. It has Tim Cook, so procurement is unequaled. But Steve is no more, so his uncanny sense of product and his requirement for perfection is missing. I wonder how many rages he would have had to push the MBP envelope much, much farther than what was issued this year ?

57

Back then that 64K ROM was a king among operating systems. At least as far as personal computers were concerned.

As much as I dislike Sierra, I can’t go so far as to say OS 9 was more stable. I have some old Macs I’m restoring and I had forgotten how annoying it was to experience hard crashes where you literally need to power cycle the machine. But OS 9 was certainly more efficient. Heck, it might have even been able to draw to the screen faster.

58

No doubt about that. Much faster. Screen drawing was crude in comparison to Sierra.

The thing is, Mac OS 9 was optimized for much, much slower machines. So they probably worked intensely to make it efficient.

Today, apart maybe for Mavericks that was supposed to save battery, I feel we all live in luxury, and rely on the extra oomph from current hardware to compensate that kind of complacency. And that is valid as well for system designers.

Is it not funny that phones, in particular, receive faster and faster processors, and yet, each new version of the system drags more resources, making them less zippy than one would expect…

59

It was! No window buffer, no control buffer, direct to screen baby!

60

Thin and light are apparently the only design criteria now
Upgradeable ? Bah who needs that ?
Swappable batteries ? Bah who needs that ?
Touch Bar ? Oh of course everyone needs that !
I have to say that I’m very disappointed by Apple in the past few years. Their focus on iEverything acts to the detriment of Mac anything (or network anything or … you get the point)

I expect they will. They always have and I have no reason to believe they’ll change that.
MS almost never has - ie/ the Xbox was hidden in other entertainment groups for years so it was hard to know actual sales figures.
Probably because for so long it was obvious that Xbox was not self sustaining and was being subsidized from other areas of the company. And MS has returned to NOT reporting sales numbers for Xbox. We’ll see if they report sales #'s for the new Surface’s. I’ll be surprised since they only usually report sales revenue - not units.

[quote=301381:@Sam Rowlands]
One thing I don’t understand about the new machines, is that I’m seeing people who’re having wait times of 2~6 weeks, while I’m also seeing reports of people walking into Apple stores and having a pick of what machines they want. Stores carrying stock of the new machines this quickly is not a good sign IMHO. Apple claimed that it was the most pre-ordered MBP ever.[/quote]
What we don’t know is how stuffed the supply chain was with preconfigured machines heading for stores ahead of the official delivery dates.