For large projects, which I have (although not as large as yours, I believe large enough to easily exhibit the problems you speak of). But I also have small projects as well where expanding down to the method level is convenient.
I guess I don’t understand the the problem with the solution given. You can drill in only as far as you wish to. If you don’t wish to drill further than 1 level, you could do that… Expand one level and double click from there. If, however, you wish to delve down 3 levels, you could, on small projects you could drill all the way down to the method level if desired. The proposed fixes would allow you, the user, to be in complete control of how much or how little is shown in the navigator without Xojo having to rethink, trash or revert the work they’ve done. In the end you would have a more powerful, more flexible and easily managed navigator control.
I was there with the beta testers. And I use this IDE on a large project probably 60+ hours a week since February. So I have a very informed perspective on how broken the navigator is.
Nothing against Bob. I don’t question his intentions. But he pulled this same thing work the community into a frenzy thing in March, 2012 on interim releases of Real Studio, and that has set us all back a good 6 months on Xojo settling into itself, just as Real said at the time that it would. I guess I have a long memory and see similar dynamics at work. It’s not healthy.
[quote=23521:@Brad Hutchings]Nothing against Bob. I don’t question his intentions. But he pulled this same thing work the community into a frenzy thing in March, 2012 on interim releases of Real Studio, and that has set us all back a good 6 months on Xojo settling into itself, just as Real said at the time that it would. I guess I have a long memory and see similar dynamics at work. It’s not healthy.
[/quote]
That is an ad hominem argument which has no bearing on the issue at hand.
If you see it that way, then it doesn’t. I see a mob and am mostly suspicious if they’d thought out what they’re doing. I’ve seen this particular mob before. I’m just pointing that out.
I’d hope that the Xojo folks could implement the request without having to rip everything apart by using/reusing the existing Navigator code. Have the Navigator show the high level objects by default, and switch to the others by context (code vs layout etc)- perhaps in a different instance of the Navigator depending on its internal construction. I’m no doubt naive- but instead let’s call it hopeful- that this kind of change wouldn’t be too crazy.
I remember sometimes feeling like the Solution Explorer in Visual Studio was too busy for my tastes, but I don’t think it ever tried to show this many things at this granular a level under disclosure triangles…
It’s a fact the new IDE is less efficient and less stable to use. Those are the issues here. The new IDE is costing us money in lost time and additional work and more frequent crashes.
It’s also a fact that spending all that time and effort developing a new IDE instead of improving the existing IDE, framework + feature set is what has set the product [RS] evolution back almost a year and continues to set us back while they still try to get the IDE back to the same level of reliability as we previously had.
Those were not customer decisions and they are not customer faults as some would try to make you believe.
During the beta testing customers did their part and strongly voiced their concerns. Unfortunately as all too often Xojo inc. didn’t listen.
I hope they continue to improve the product and get these issues fixed. It’s really a shame this happened and we’ve all suffered from this.
Again, you are attacking his character so you can justify your position by saying he has a mob mentality and not the issue which is the navigator has a scalability problem. You are reasoning with a logical fallacy.
[quote=23521:@Brad Hutchings]I was there with the beta testers. And I use this IDE on a large project probably 60+ hours a week since February. So I have a very informed perspective on how broken the navigator is.
Nothing against Bob. I don’t question his intentions. But he pulled this same thing work the community into a frenzy thing in March, 2012 on interim releases of Real Studio, and that has set us all back a good 6 months on Xojo settling into itself, just as Real said at the time that it would. I guess I have a long memory and see similar dynamics at work. It’s not healthy.[/quote]
Bob did not work me into a frenzy… I like many others find that navigator design makes the product harder to use. I brought it up in the beta.
When it became obvious they had no intension to change it I stopped harping on it… But I did expect exactly this reaction … not initially ,but after a couple of months of trying to use it after release.
Not a slap against Bob’s character. He’s quite enthusiastic about this. I don’t have a problem with that. I think there is a track record though, on a very similar approach. That particular incident put us all in limbo for more than 5 months waiting for critical bug fixes, and then at least a 6 month delay on Xojo (not counting the extension to June 4). I can see this unfolding similarly.
If that constitutes an ad hominem attack, tough beans. It’s there for your consideration. And I’d be pretty suspicious of anyone telling Xojo how to develop their product or how to run their business. When you start the request with “this sucks”, and proceed with “do it this way”, that’s exactly what you’re doing. I doubt any of you would have 20 seconds of patience for a customer that took that approach with you.
I have no idea and it really doesn’t matter to me. I was just pointing out that insisting on posters use their real names, doesn’t make the conversation any more civil.
[quote=23537:@Brad Hutchings]Not a slap against Bob’s character. He’s quite enthusiastic about this. I don’t have a problem with that. I think there is a track record though, on a very similar approach. That particular incident put us all in limbo for more than 5 months waiting for critical bug fixes, and then at least a 6 month delay on Xojo (not counting the extension to June 4). I can see this unfolding similarly.
If that constitutes an ad hominem attack, tough beans. It’s there for your consideration. And I’d be pretty suspicious of anyone telling Xojo how to develop their product or how to run their business. When you start the request with “this sucks”, and proceed with “do it this way”, that’s exactly what you’re doing. I doubt any of you would have 20 seconds of patience for a customer that took that approach with you.[/quote]
Let’s put this into a simple context. People have listened to what Bob, you and others have said and long time members of the community are voting with their wallets and going elsewhere and that is a real problem for Xojo. Xojo isn’t losing just the initial renewal, but all the subsequent years of renewal for each customer that leaves. If enough leave it could result in layoffs etc. That is not the desired result. If what Bob spoke is the truth, then it will resonate with people as such according to their own experience with the IDE and that is what you are seeing and not a mob mentality and that is why the feedback report reached the number 2 spot.
[quote=23537:@Brad Hutchings] When you start the request with “this sucks”, and proceed with “do it this way”, that’s exactly what you’re doing. I doubt any of you would have 20 seconds of patience for a customer that took that approach with you.[/quote]So we have a dilemma here. While I agree with what you are saying, I’d also say: A cat meows, a dog barks and the navigator sucks.
The one who designed the navigator may get frustrated when reading such words and anticipating this we could now try to pack the unpleasant message into nice wording. I prefer candid words. At least we are showing that we are willing to continue with Xojo. (I could switch to Xamarin as well, because I’m coming from C# and MS Visual Studio).
Et ceterum censeo:
I need a reliable hook, some kind of anchor, where I quickly can go back to and find those objects that I am working on. Without scrolling.
So I probably would do three things:
Keep the root of a tab locked (I don’t wish to see ‘multiple selection’ any longer)
Add the option to save and load different sets of tabs
Add the option to save and load various navigator views where the root of the tree remains locked
And I repeat Jeremy’s list :
Make tab locking work properly
When double clicking an item, do not select it then launch a new tab, simply launch a new tab leaving the current tab alone
[quote=23558:@Oliver Osswald]So we have a dilemma here. While I agree with what you are saying, I’d also say: A cat meows, a dog barks and the navigator sucks.
[/quote]
Fine. It sucks in proportion. Maybe enough to merit the 20th case. The big problem with it vaulting to #1 – could be 15 Pro users ranking it #1 – is that ranks it way out of proportion for the problem before anyone has had time to think about it. I didn’t even look at Bob’s FR until this afternoon, and it most certainly doesn’t reflect anywhere near thinking I can support on this. But hey, now it’s been 5 days, and Geoff hates Texas or whatever because he hasn’t responded.
I’m wondering, do I pump my mailing list with a plea and ask people to throw votes to a feature request canceling out Bob’s? I know a lot of developers who were peeved about the whole redirect thing in Spring, 2012 for the same reason I was. Do we have giant p*ssing match? Or might it be wiser to make it known that not everyone is on board with this and know that Xojo will figure this out and only raise a stink if they cave.
Meanwhile, one raises an objection and the anon peanut gallery chimes in with very personal attacks. I kinda think some of you deserve what’s coming :-).
[quote]Norman Palardy The report has been filed & its been read since its status is “Reviewed”.
Chiming in to say “we have nothing to say” as the only thing to say isn’t really useful.[/quote]
Navigating anything within Xojo sucks (and no it’s no. 1 and not no. 20). Xojo software knows this since 6 months and the only thing you find necessary to say is “we don’t have plan”. This is weak and disappointing.
Get a plan and get it soon and communicate this with the users! You even might do something revolutionary and ask your users.
Your right, I wouldn’t have 20 seconds of patience for “a” customer that took that approach, but I would if I had 20 customers saying the same thing. Regardless of how untactful that might be for a customer to say those things, it doesn’t mean I should ignore it.
Look Brad, I started this post and my original question was I was having a problem with the concept of the new navigator. I’ve been using RealStudio since 2005, I loved it. In Xojo I was getting lost. Honestly, I thought I was doing something wrong and asked for input in how others were using the tab feature and how to try to replicate what I thought were good features in RealStudio. I never said “this sucks” or “do it this way” (maybe some others did) But you know what I did find out? A lot of people were having the same issue, so many that it elevated the feedback report to #2 in just a few days. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote, they get to choose, and they are. Just because you don’t like the results doesn’t mean its wrong - the customers decided. You can’t develop a ranking system and change the rules once you don’t like the results. At that point Xojo can decide and not make the changes and they’ll reap the results. That’s fine, it’s a business decision. I’ve chosen not to sell to certain customers before. Maybe it’s better to have fewer higher paying customers, but I don’t think that will be the end result.
At this point I really think you are one of the most offensive people on this board. Every reply incites insults, many personal, why the poster is wrong or “don’t tell them how to run their business”. A thread about usability somehow devolves into “crotch kicking”. Quite honestly if I owned Xojo (and I know you will come back with some smart remark) you would be the last person I would want on a board defending my company. Any professional visitor to this site considering Xojo would probably look at your posts, shrug their shoulders and move on - its childish and immature. You say you ignore anyone with an alias but yet you continually inject yourself into discussions where there are clearly alias’ being used.
I think in order to get back on topic the discussion should revolve around the people who are unsatisfied to discuss possible improvements and ideas. If your happy with the way it works, sit this one out - you’re not going to convince this swell of people they are wrong.
[quote=23561:@Brad Hutchings]Fine. It sucks in proportion.
Meanwhile, one raises an objection and the anon peanut gallery chimes in with very personal attacks. I kinda think some of you deserve what’s coming :-).[/quote]
Now you’re saying “it sucks” - Classic. Let us “peanut gallery” continue the conversation in peace…
I hope they sort it out as we have a lot invested in RS and I’d genuinely like to come back. We won’t however keep spending money which costs us time rather than saving it.
A quick count says we are currently using 11 RS apps here in our company. All are running fine as RS builds so there’s no immediate need for me to rewrite anything but if it becomes clear we’re not going to get over this hurdle then we’ll have a serious look elsewhere. I came from Filemaker Pro 3 - it’s come a long way since then and I’m sure I could go back.
