[quote=23334:@Joseph Cole]I’m a little perplexed that Xojo Inc has been absolutely silent on the subject. Just seems odd to me from a business perspective…
No “We hear you and we’ll fix it”, no “Go pound sand”, no nothing.
Hmmm.[/quote]
Yes, a response would be good. I really can’t understand where the lack of response would be considered as a good business or customer relations decision under any circumstance… Hopefully we will hear something.
[quote=23420:@Joseph E]Yes, a response would be good. I really can’t understand where the lack of response would be considered as a good business or customer relations decision under any circumstance… Hopefully we will hear something.
[/quote]
Reason #1 why these exercises are always a bad idea. Somebody’s gonna get get kicked in the crotch on this. It’s unavoidable. Square up!
I’d say that until we’ve hashed this out internally there just isn’t anything TO say
Well I assume your talking about someone at Xojo when you refer to “Somebody’s…” and it shouldn’t really be that way. Hopefully not one single person or even just a few are responsible for decisions made in the IDE. The IDE is good but does need some tweaking, hopefully rather than placing blame or kicking someone in the chops they just work together, gather input and make some changes. I think that is all everyone who commented is after. Some acknowledgement from Xojo that they 1) Acknowledge a problem and 2) working on solutions would be good.
Norman, Simply saying that you acknowledge an issue is better than silence. Even if you’re undecided on the solution or course of action. Some indication on how this ranks on importance would be good too. Thank You!!
This is not the best way to approach this PR wise. “Geoff” should of said something like, “We are considering the request.” To say you guys are “hashing” it out, seems ambiguous. Either you are going to change the design or you won’t, the details you can roll out later.
Bad assumption. Really. Bad. Assumption.
[quote=23430:@Joseph E]
Norman, Simply saying that you acknowledge an issue is better than silence. Even if you’re undecided on the solution or course of action. Some indication on how this ranks on importance would be good too. Thank You!![/quote]
Like other cases that we’ve not decided anything about it sits in the queue for consideration
Or option 3 - we haven’t decided ANYTHING about this case at this time
Saying, “Or option 3 - we haven’t decided ANYTHING about this case at this time” is better since it is not ambiguous. Now we know where Xojo stands at this time. This should of been said a couple of days ago.
I like the concept of the navigator. I just hate the implementation. I think minimizing it to the point where you have as little scrolling as possible is where I’d like to go. Scrolling in a listbox is ‘bad’.
I’d liken it to the same reason why you don’t load a listbox with 10,000 items. The user just can’t visually process that much data. Scrolling becomes a chore.
For me, minimizing the size of the Navigator list means going back to the object level as the lowest level. Need details? Select it and see it in the appropriate editor.
Excessive scrolling and excessive clicking are big time wasters. I’ve even got a sore finger now from excessive clicking, no joke.
The report has been filed & its been read since its status is “Reviewed”.
Chiming in to say “we have nothing to say” as the only thing to say isn’t really useful.
[quote=23459:@Norman Palardy]The report has been filed & its been read since its status is “Reviewed”.
Chiming in to say “we have nothing to say” as the only thing to say isn’t really useful.[/quote]
Hmmmm…
OK, you have a sensitive issue with users that mushrooms on the NUG, forum, Bob’s blog and a feedback report that zooms in record time to the top of the list and people are publicly stating that their pain in using the navigator is causing them to rethink there renewals and you say communicating with your user base isn’t really useful!? What is Xojo thinking?
The purpose is to let the user base know what is going on and to wait for further word later and calm things down and generally let them know you are actively working on it. The navigator has been a contentious issue since its beginning and you guys know this and it seems a little disingenuous to let user base hang in the wind like you did.
[quote=23462:@Brendan Murphy]Hmmmm…
OK, you have a sensitive issue with users that mushrooms on the NUG, forum, Bob’s blog and a feedback report that zooms in record time to the top of the list and people are publicly stating that their pain in using the navigator is causing them to rethink there renewals and you say communicating with your user base isn’t really useful!?[/quote]
I agree Brendan, given the unprecedented support for Bob’s feedback request, something official should have been said by now.
In total frustration we cancelled our subscription yesterday and received a refund ($1000). We probably would have stuck around if there had been an acknowledgement of the problem with some possibility of a fix in the works. I’ve continued to support the company for over 10 years, often when we didn’t think they deserved it, but enough is enough. If they get it fixed we may reconsider our position but I’m not holding my breath.
Childish, simply childish.
Tempest in a teapot. When people wake up and see development priorities they really care about – 64 bit, iOS, etc. – put on the back-burner because “the community decided” over a course of 5 days that the navigator needed to be rolled back to Real Studio behavior, they’re going to be annoyed.
I’ll sit this one out, but it won’t be pretty. Enjoy!
-Brad
@Bob Keeney, instead of reverting the entire Navigator, would these steps not fix the problem, and keep the added power of the navigator, such as application wide filter that filters methods, events, objects, modules, etc…?
This seems much simpler (and already in the works, i.e. they created locking tabs for a reason, they are just not working right)? Since you created the feedback item and penned a lengthy post on your blog, I directed this toward you.
[quote=23512:@Jeremy Cowgar]@Bob Keeney, instead of reverting the entire Navigator, would these steps not fix the problem, and keep the added power of the navigator, such as application wide search?
There is just too much in eh navigator tree
With the outlined solution, you could expand only as much as you wished to. You wouldn’t need to go into methods, constants, events, etc… unless you wanted to. Thus, there would be no more in the tree than in previous revisions, unless you wanted there to be more.
You are mischaracterizing the situation. Things like 64 bit, iOS, etc. won’t matter if customers leave the environment like Kim. Strangely enough, Kim will probably get those stated benefits and more depending which environment she chooses next. But back to your point, this wasn’t decided just in the last 5 days, but the moment they released it to the beta testers months ago. Bob has stated that he voiced his concerns then and through the intervening months and now you are seeing it echoed in many others today. This has been brewing a long time and just culminated recently. The number of people who gave their support for the feedback report really makes a statement that Xojo made a design mistake and it is the design that needs to be fixed. You can’t bug fix your way out of this one. That may be tough pill for Xojo to swallow, but it is the truth. If in trying to redesign the navigator Xojo does a half-baked compromise that really doesn’t solve the scalability issues, then they will dig an even deeper hole for themselves. Xojo is walking in a land mine field and they really need to pay attention since the first time around they went ahead with something that is causing people to consider dropping their renewals and it didn’t see apparent to them at the time that this would be the effect!
I agree with Karen. Locking tabs and double clicking always launching in a new tab will help but still masks the underlying problem. It doesn’t solve the problem that the list just gets too long and gets too clunky to manage. I remain unconvinced that it’s a good idea for every single method, event, property to be shown in the Navigator.
If I want to see code stuff (i.e. methods, properties, events, etc) I expect to look into the Code Editor (as in Real Studio). If I want to see controls I will look into the Layout Editor (as in Real Studio). I believe the Navigator makes more sense at the object level rather than the control and code details level.
Our projects tend to be very big. I’m working on a Web Edition project right now that at last count had 3,000 objects between pages, containers, classes, styles, etc. They are grouped but even in Real Studio that’s a large Project Tab list that’s hard to manage. I took that project in Xojo the other day and expanding two pages with resulting controls, methods, properties made for an impossible to manage list even with tabs and drilling down. The bugs in the Navigator just make it that much more annoying.
It boils down to time = money for me as a consultant. I’ve been working with Xojo for 7 months (more in reality) and the Navigator takes time and patience to use. Patience I have. Time is not.