Complete newbies

At the risk of sounding old, I think that people are more demanding of instantaneous results these days. When many (most?) of us were starting out programming, there was no Internet, not in the way we know it now at least. So we bought or borrowed a book. And we read it. And it took time but that was just how it was. After learning BASIC, C, Z80 assembly and Modula-2 (that was a waste of time), I got into CrossBasic/REALbasic. I remember printing out the original REALbasic user guide and language reference - this wasn’t a very good idea really, as it was absolutely huge - and I used to study it endlessly.

I get the feeling that the net has trained people, especially young people, to expect instant results. 2 minute videos or a badly written blog post to learn, say, the concept of object-oriented programming, is hardly going to cut it. But people seem to expect it to. And this seems to spill over onto forums sometimes. “Read a manual?! Can’t you just give me the answer?” Of course, reading the manual often is the answer!

Now, this is not the case with all newbies, of course, we have some great ones here (apart from the recent incident mentioned by Michel) who like to be pointed in the right direction, rather than just handed code. I don’t want to see them put off asking questions, even if the rest of intuitively know where to find the answer. In that spirit, I approve of Tim’s initial post that if you feel bugged by someone’s post, that you just “walk away”.

I, too, work better with examples as I can follow it with the debugger and determine what is going on and, more importantly, why it is done in that way.

I think that the issue is that everybody works slightly differently. Nowadays the LR makes so much more sense to me than it did when I started out. I still remember how odd OOP was to me but, once I got it, it was obvious. This means that I sometimes have a problem when I see a newbie question and my immediate reaction is RTFM! I have to remind myself that the question being asked was one that I had struggled with in the past.

So, some newbies will work better with examples and some won’t. There are members who have similar views and will answer accordingly. There are enough members to answer both types.

The issue I struggle with us when the newbie does not appreciate the guidance being offered. In this respect I fully support Michel in that they are being rude. From that point onwards I just switch off and ignore.

The latest problem was one of insistence that we solve his problem. There were about 4 people who pointed him directly to the correct answer in numerous forms and he got upset because we did not write his code. That was just b****y rude.

Maybe it’s my age but I was brought up to respect my elders and elders in this context are those members who are far more experienced than me.

Respect to all who have helped me in the past and a deep thank you again to those people.

Respect and good manners cost nothing.

Richard, you can testify to the constant attention received by beginners and not so beginners alike when they ask a question. I do not think Karen means anything but to share her personal experience.

I do feel, though, that before asking a question, one must genuinely try to research the subject as honestly and thoroughly as possible. Not for fear of waisting the time of so called “people who know”, but rather to give oneself a chance to find the answer, and to better grasp the concepts involved.

Today, I posted a a question in https://forum.xojo.com/12285-move-mouse-cursor-and-click-by-code-for-mac about declares that far exceed my usual coding. Before doing so, I spent quite a bit of time collecting Objective C code sample for programs doing what I wanted to do. Mind you, I hate Objective-C. Then I went to Apple developers site and looked for the calls used in the snippets I had found. I spent quite a bit of time patiently deciphering the (yik) Objective-C code, writing comments about the variables employed, their type, researching on Apple site the constant values (not found), and so on.

Only after that patient process did I sit down and wrote the question as clearly as I could with where I stood in my discovery, where I was stuck, and so on. In that process, I several times realized I had understood some concepts that eluded me before.

When I finally completed my post, I had found a lot of answers I could have not if I had taken less time.

So when Jason King came to my rescue, I was better able to understand the code he posted.

All that to say that I would have got a lot less from his code if I had not been researching beforehand. I happen to have a visual memory, and not to be particularly at ease with abstract concepts. So it would seem more logical for me to rely on visual approach only. Except that coding cannot be reduced to visual. One has to understand what each element of the code signifies. And that implies to grasp concepts that are not visual. Would that be variable types, encoding, scope, and so on.

In the end, coding is a mix of collecting recipes snippets, wrapping one’s head around concepts, and yes, reading carefully the LR and other literature until all falls into place. It is like school. If you leave anything on the side, it comes back to haunt you one day or another. Sure, one can take shortcuts, but that quick result will evaporate as fast as it came.

I am grateful for the help I find here. But ultimately, if I do not put the necessary efforts in really understanding every line of the code that was handed to me, I will remain as ignorant as before, just able to apply opaque formulas. That is all the difference between training and enlightenment. I rather go for the latter.

I agree Michel :slight_smile:
I receive lots of help from the members on here, and my knowledge has improved considerably due to it.

I often spend days researching and trying stuff before I ask on here, but unfortunately I am not a natural when it comes to developing, and I have to fight all the way in order to grasp concepts.

I completely understand both sides - but I can only speak for myself :slight_smile:

This is true. Over on the exclusive Pro channel, we once discussed how to spoof PayPal with DNS and SSL. We then used these technical conclusions to take exactly $1.26 from each non-Pro forum member over the course of about 7 months. So, indeed, we made the larger community poorer. By $1.26 per non-Pro member.

Assume the position !
:slight_smile:

You guys should spend some time on Apple’s official developer forums. It would make you realize how great these forums are!

Same thing for Microsoft developer network. Talking about cold and unfriendly places…

We all do !

My comment was not so much ignore them, but rather please don’t go off on them if they irritate you. Yes, their behavior may be bad, but you don’t need to be abusive in return.

[quote=91627:@Brad Hutchings]This is true. Over on the exclusive Pro channel, we once discussed how to spoof PayPal with DNS and SSL. We then used these technical conclusions to take exactly $1.26 from each non-Pro forum member over the course of about 7 months. So, indeed, we made the larger community poorer. By $1.26 per non-Pro member.

[/quote]

[quote=91608:@Richard Summers]aren - with all due respect, I have to disagree with your last paragraph:

I think those that immediately post code, instead of just pointing them politely in the right direction is not really doing them or the rest of us a favor.
Everybody learns in different ways due to the way their brain is hard-wired.

[/quote]

That was taken bit out of context… What I said was :

I was speaking about only those who obviously have not made any effort to help themselves first. I would think we would not want to encourage such behavior.

Great, now I can’t get Cyndi Lauper singing “Newbies just wanna write code” out of my head. The price I pay for venturing out of the Pro forum to answer newbie questions. Barf.

No problem Karen - I agree in that context :slight_smile:

Tim if your op was referring to the guy yesterday or the day before demanding code and he then got banned from the forum? I have to agree here, he was rude, arrogant and abusive and did not deserve the time of day. I was surprised how much help he got even when he was blunt with people.

Tim if your op was referring to the guy yesterday or the day before demanding code and he then got banned from the forum? I have to agree here, he was rude, arrogant and abusive and did not deserve the time of day. I was surprised how much help he got even when he was blunt with people.

Hmm… forum is eating my posts.

That was the most recent example, but it was the basis for my post. I didn’t see the conversation until the damage was done, but I reviewed both threads that day and it was an unfortunate case of miscommunication and jumping to conclusions on both sides. Bottom line, though, it was an altercation that didn’t have to happen.