Hey guys. It seems like Xojo’s marketing efforts are working and we’re getting more and more new users on the forums. Some of them are complete beginners and really don’t even know the questions to ask half the time. I know it can be frustrating working with them, and it really isn’t your responsibility to teach someone the basics of programming. Especially if they seem to not be trying. But I would recommend that you simply walk away.
It’s ok to drop the conversation and leave them hanging. They’ll figure out that their line of inquiry isn’t working. Or maybe someone else will explain things in a different way that clicks with them. Who knows. Or maybe they’re really a troll. Who knows. In any event, just resist the urge to editorialize. If you get frustrated, step away. It’s their responsibility to learn how to use the language. If they become demanding, walk away faster. They’ll figure out that that doesn’t work, either.
I don’t mind newbies that ask intelligent questions, and show that they have made some level of effort to solve their problem. And I understand the many newbies are not sure how best to phrase their questions (or in some cases if they are even asking the right questions).
What I do mind is those that “bite the hand that feeds them”… by that I mean those that complain that an “example piece of code” was not the full blown solution to their problem… or that provided code clearly marked as “untested/off the top of my head” doesn’t “just work”… and then the topper is when they begin name calling, threatening etc, because the level of help is not what they wanted.
So… for you newbies… really we do want to help… but you have to help yourself as well.
Experment
Read the Manuals
Ask questions… but in a way that show you have done some level of the first two things.
Don’t say “My program doesn’t work… fix it”… Say “I have this piece of code that I wrote, and when it runs I expect results X, but am getting results Y, or error message Z”.
Post snippets of your code (not the entire application).
Remember for the most part everyone here is a volunteer… and believe it or not was at the same level of experience that you are right now.
Work with us, and we will gladly work with you.
Most of us have a big enough ego, that we want to share
Some of the current members may have themselves psychological conditions, worries, personal loss or otherwise similar problems. Yet, they participate peacefully to this forum.
Gifted or not, sick or not, bad behavior and aggressive attitude are unacceptable in a public forum. Mental health is no excuse for abusing other members. When a deranged person disturbs the peace in a crowded street, citizens are justified to call the police to see their personal security respected. It is not different on the Internet.
Empathy is a noble sentiment, yet it should not justify abuse.
When I stumbled upon Xojo, the thing that impressed me most (besides the ease of learning and advances) was this extremely helpful forum. I wouldnt want to miss it.
But of course answering the same complete beginners questions which give a clear indication of RTFM answers would overburden the capacity of every developer involved.
How about putting a sticky on top of the beginners section with a few helpful hints? Like
"Our community is always willing to help. But with the increasing number of Xojo users it is impossible to give individual answers to every beginner who can find his answers in the manuals and webinars Xojo created especially for him. If you are new to programming and/or Xojo, please refer to the tutorials and guides you find directly accessible from within Xojos help menu.
If this wasnt helpful, use the search function of this forum which is located on the right top of your screen. In many cases you will find threads that answer your question, often with the answer directly included on top of the message thread.
If you think you encountered a bug in the IDE start Xojos feedback app by clicking on its symbol in Xojos icon toolbar. Use the search function quite often you will find workarounds that help you overcome the problem until the bug is finally resolved.
And if none of this did really help you: Go on and start a new conversation."
if I remember correctly the user numbers of this forum were at maybe 5000 earlier this year. So we got at least 2000 new users here!
Maybe an effect of some bundle offer recently?
Asking elementary questions is natural. Not knowing how to consult the LR too. Having not read the manuals as well. And people who regularly assist in answering questions do it gladly. What was particularly unpleasant in a recent incident was that the guy demanded code, pretexting that was his way of learning, while dismissing any suggestion to read anything or even to try to understand. And when rightfully he was reminded that he had to show at least a bit of willingness to learn, he got aggressive and requested others to “fix his code”.
Michael Diehr is probably right. That particular guy probably suffered from more problems than lack of Xojo knowledge. Psychological, probably, but also very bad manners. None of the participants to this forum is paid, apart from Xojo team members, and those who provide advice do it on a volunteer basis. It makes it even less admissible to be treated discourteously.
Personally, I enjoy it when I have the chance to share the little I know. And often, questions asked are a challenge I appreciate as a good mind game. It is also frequently the occasion to test things out and discover aspects of development my own projects did not reveal. That is the reward I gain from participating, together with a thank you from the member who asked the question. Showing elementary gratitude is not only customary, it is what motivates members to share their knowledge. Snatching answers and running without a thank you is not only rude, it ruins members willingness to help.
I will always be a newbie in one field or another. Today I posted a message asking for help with Mac OS X declares. I hope more competent participants will lay a hand and help me. That is only possible in an atmosphere of trust and respect like the one I found when I got here.
[quote=91498:@Christian Schmitz]if I remember correctly the user numbers of this forum were at maybe 5000 earlier this year. So we got at least 2000 new users here!
Maybe an effect of some bundle offer recently?[/quote]
How do you know the number of participants ? That is a lot of people !
Great Terry. Make things easy to us to get links to send people to the subjects (Wow, 4 to’s in a row). Just a remark, I see “What’s an OOP”, and usually a better form should be “What’s OOP”, because it’s a concept.
[quote=90993:@Tim Hare]Hey guys. It seems like Xojo’s marketing efforts are working and we’re getting more and more new users on the forums. Some of them are complete beginners and really don’t even know the questions to ask half the time. I know it can be frustrating working with them, and it really isn’t your responsibility to teach someone the basics of programming. Especially if they seem to not be trying. But I would recommend that you simply walk away.
It’s ok to drop the conversation and leave them hanging. They’ll figure out that their line of inquiry isn’t working. Or maybe someone else will explain things in a different way that clicks with them. Who knows. Or maybe they’re really a troll. Who knows. In any event, just resist the urge to editorialize. If you get frustrated, step away. It’s their responsibility to learn how to use the language. If they become demanding, walk away faster. They’ll figure out that that doesn’t work, either.
Just my .02
And keep up the good work. This community rocks.[/quote]
Tim isn’t this what the PRO only channel was devised for? I mean surely we should not encourage people to ignore newbies if they don’t want to. Lets not see this forum go stack overflow style, full of people who know it all and don’t want to take time to help those who have just started out. Newbies may ask irritating questions which to experienced users appear like they are being lazy or haven’t read the manuals but they just want to get up and running quick and think its the way to go. Perhaps just point them in the direction of the relevant user guide rather than answer the question.
The problem is if all or most of the “advanced” things get discussed on the Pro channel then a lot of us will who don’t have pro licenses would have very little reason to be here.
I don’t know what discussion is on the pro Channel , but any technical discussion there make the larger community poorer IMO. I have feared stratification of the community ever since I heard about the Pro channel. (BTW at one time I did have an Enterprise license but i can’t justify the price of a Pro lives - and it’s renewals now)
In any case, back when I was first learning (about 12+ years ago), I would not ask a question on the NUG unless I first read the docs and tried to figure it out myself… There was not a lot of the kind of thing that is going here with newbies who did not read the manual (or were demanding) on the NUG back then.
I have to admit I have been getting a bit annoyed with those here who obviously don’t try too help themselves first. I think those that immediately post code, instead of just pointing them politely in the right direction is not really doing them or the rest of us a favor.
Mike, if I may, I think you have missed what happened in the latest incident. Instead of “people who know” going Stack Overflow style and humiliating a newbie, it was the newbie who tried to dictate his rules, would not hear of learning, demanded his code to be fixed right away, and got offended by suggestions to read the LR or the manuals. Everybody could read how Greg O’LOne, Dave S, Bill Gookin, Peter Truskier, Simon Berridge, Jason King, Rick Araujo, Markus Winter and J Andrew Lipscomb tried their best to suggest reading, to explain concepts, and altogether extend a hand. If anything, Tim maybe right : too much attention may have given the guy the wrong impression that he was entitled to VIP treatment.
I admit not having been with those who tried to help, because I discovered the posts late, when it was obvious the OP had a bad attitude : too much ambition and not enough willingness to learn, plus a rather unpleasant way of demanding things. I was shocked by the way I saw my fellows forum members treated. Maybe I am the one who turned into a SO gremlin…
Karen - with all due respect, I have to disagree with your last paragraph:
Everybody learns in different ways due to the way their brain is hard-wired.
I personally (and lots of other people) learn the quickest by visual examples. If I can see working code - I can work out what is happening, and thus learn from it.
If someone points me to some kind of documentation - I am grateful, but even documentation often makes no sense to a novice.
I understand that some people just want code given to them immediately, and have no intention in learning BUT, there are lots of others like myself, who learn 10 times quicker via a working example or complete snippet.
Some people learn easiest by reading - others are more visually oriented.
Just a remark, I see “What’s an OOP”, and usually a better form should be “What’s OOP”, because it’s a concept.