Bootstrap design

Hello,

Is there a way to easily a Bootstrap design rather than web styles or Web Control SDK ?

The standard layout of a Xojo web app is not really modern compared to other web applications. I would be a very nice feature if this could be embedded into
a Xojo project.

Thank you.

Kind regards,
Eric

The forum search is your friend :
https://forum.xojo.com/29700-bootstrap-controls-now-available-for-xojo-web-updated-3-7

Thank you, indeed I saw that topic earlier. Even though this is quite limited. I am looking for an option with more possibilities (my profile icon etc).

Why don’t you contact Tim ? He already did enough work to know what is implied.

Good idea, I will do.

I have contacted Tim. Implementing Bootstrap was not that easy as I thought it was, let’s say nearby impossible if you would implement all the features. That’s a pity, from my point of view Xojo is far behind its competition at this point.

This could be a real unique selling point if they plan to enroll this feature. Create stunning stunning applications is very important nowadays (read: mandatory).

So far my frustration…

[quote=257176:@Eric Fernee]I have contacted Tim. Implementing Bootstrap was not that easy as I thought it was, let’s say nearby impossible if you would implement all the features. That’s a pity, from my point of view Xojo is far behind its competition at this point.

This could be a real unique selling point if they plan to enroll this feature. Create stunning stunning applications is very important nowadays (read: mandatory).

So far my frustration…[/quote]

You may be slightly confusing Web Sites and Web Apps. In my experience, it is rather overkill, or somewhat unadapted, to use Xojo to fully implement the kind of design provided by Bootstrap. IMHO Xojo apps are not made to do web sites. They are a fantastic way to automate complex processing, they are gorgeous at porting Desktop apps to the web, but they are not an HTML editor.

IMHO the best of both world is to build the site in HTML/CSS/JavaScript+Bootstrap, and add Xojo app(s) where it would become nightmarish with conventional engineering such as php. Xojo is downright brilliant for processing and database.

Heck, using it as a backoffice with HandleURL, you can even keep a UI in HTML+ and benefit from Xojo Web like you would do with php.

This is a decision Xojo made (perfectly understandable). But I understand Erics disappointment. I had the same experience about 6 months ago when I presented a Xojo webapp to a potential client. They liked the development speed a lot, hated the looks.

I ended up writing my own free hybrid responsive framework ABMaterial that profits of the best of both worlds. (I didn’t pick Bootstrap, but Materialize CSS as my base framework, a personal choice). On one hand it is a ‘WebSite’ that can benefit of beinig able to use all SEO techniques, Google Analytics, Open Graph, Google crawling, etc + having a very modern look. On the other hand it is a ‘WebApp’ where you as a programmer have all the power of an OO development environment, business logic and database programming . All this is done without having to write a single line of HTML, CSS, Javascript, php etc… , just by using a Basic like language.

I just mention this to show it is possible and the number of donations for my framework show there is definitely a need for something like this. The future is an AND not an OR, as they keep growing closer together. And clients don’t make that distinction. I’m now writing a WebApp for a choir, although they keep insisting the WebSite is starting to look great :slight_smile:

@ Michel, indeed this is not about websites. I am talking about web apps. When you offer RAD tools like this, the design and technical should work together, smoothly, within the same system. From my point of view it is not overkill, but a nice full featured product. When it is not within the system it should facilitated by making it Bootstrap compatible.

In addition to the aforementioned, it is hard to imagine that customers are going to buy web apps with the default layout. Just like Alain pointed out.

I truly believe that Xojo is a very good system to work with, even when some essential things are missing.

@ Alain, thank you for your explanation.

I believe what Xojo did was to create the best approximation of their desktop product they could, so people familiar with their previous products could port their apps with a minimum of efforts. That is a political decision and they have to live with it.

Eric, my point was not to say that Xojo Web is perfect as it is, but that it is not what you hope it to be. See my response to Alain above. I don’t quite remember when Real Software Web Edition was released (2011 ? 2012 ?), but it could have been a good idea at the time.

If your first experience in web design is Bootstrap, I see where you are.

It is not unlike what happens with the latest Windows Design Guidelines. UWP apps are nothing like the antiquated Win32 controls I have known since 1985.

Frankly, I am not quite sure Xojo even understands the challenge implied by the overwhelming number of phones and tablets around, and the change of UI paradigm. At a time when users discover computing with iOS or Android phones and touch interface, old UIs are so last century.

Any time I get to that part of the discussion, I usually get angry reactions saying that UWP apps are ugly, and that touch interface sucks. Yet, more than 50% of views on the Internet are made by mobile devices. You are right, it would be great to see Xojo Web embrace the new web UI standards. Implementing that is no joke, though. I am afraid not too many people see how crucially strategic that could be.

I understand your point. Of course, WE is a nice feature to have, but it is definitely not finished yet. I won’t believe you anyway if you told me that you like the design :wink:

My first experience in web design was way back in 1998 (simple HTML). I agree with the last century part, I think this design would be state of the art back in the days. Nowadays it is a challenge to stay ahead with the competition and constantly improve the user experience. This should be adopt more easily and quickly.

I am afraid too. I think that they will jeopardize the future of the business if they get stuck on the ‘old habits’. They really could make a difference by investing time into this and I sincerely hope that they will do anytime soon.

I got this comment several times from customers.
Thats why I don’t use Xojo Web. Its outdated to say the least regarding UI.

@ Christoph, which RAD tool are you using for web at this moment ?

I had hoped that with some CSS modifications / additions there could arise a stunning web app.

In addition I have seen a few nice web apps jat a forum topic here, which shows what kind of web apps can be created with Xojo.

There should be some workaround to accomplish this, written by Xojo staff. They really need to convince themselves about the importance of having a modern layout.

It sounds like people are saying the WE UI handling needs a major redesign, which would seem to mean redoing most of the product… My guess is that is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

That said are those complaining about the looks talking about public facing web sites/apps?

It seems to me the current UI would be find for in-house/internal applications with a company. There cost (so development time) and functionality/benefit matter more than looks in the long run… As long as users finds it makes it easier/faster to get their jobs done management is usually happy.

That said I know looks make selling easier.

  • Karen

Both. I agree for our own inhouse apps it’s not that important. However, for inhouse apps made for clients it is the same as being public. You’ve lost a selling point. And making money should be the point of WE I think, at this price. The cost (development time) and functionality/benefit are not that great any more (if any) compared with some other products as it may have been at release time.

All of this sounds potentially dire for the WE, and maybe Xojo as a company given the emphasis on the web these days and the developments in the X-platform market - both mobile and desktop…

I hope that is not the case!

  • Karen

I sincerely hope that Xojo sees that it is worthwhile the effort to invest in layout, make it responsive / compatible for mobile devices.

Personally, if you ask me, purely as an entrepreneur the investment could be lifesaving.

Karen, it will not come to that, I’m sure! But it is a fact , like Michael pointed out many times, it seems the days of pure desktop apps are coming to an end. As a (small) developer, it becomes a lot easier to make the decision to only develop a web app. it runs on everything from your desktop to your phone without a big effort (if it uses the responsive design guidelines, I mean).

We took that decision about a year ago and haven’t regret it. We still use some Xojo for really particular things (like reading out an USB scanner that needs a dll), but all the user interaction is done with webapps. Clients are very happy after we demonstrated their app on the desktop, grab an iPad or an Android phone and to their surprise they got the mobile versions too (and actually look great).

The StandAlone compiled webapps in Xojo (or jServer in B4X) immidiately gave us a great opportunity. Engine with all business logic compiled running on a server, UI in any webbrowser connecting to it (on any device). Nice! We even are starting to experiment with running a ‘webserver’ on our Android devices. That way we can access all the hardware on the device.

Certainly, for some type apps this design model is not going to work (yet), but for a lot of genres of apps they do (CRM, CMS, job registration, accountant apps, production etc). And let’s be fair, those are the type apps most of us can make a decent living of. We all want to make a ‘killer’ app, but those days are over I’m afraid. Everything is just a copy, of a copy… Original ideas are hard to find, and I doubt I’ll use Xojo (or any other non-standard language) to write it. It is very hard to sell your company if you do (I’ve been there)

But let’s cheer up. it’s weekend and Peter Sagan won the Ronde Van Vlaanderen (cycling). Great winner and a great optimist! Time for beers…

In its present state, Xojo Web is unfortunately becoming irrelevant in an environment largely dominated not only by Responsive Design (RubberViewsWE provides that), but especially, by modern controls such as Bootstrap.

http://expo.getbootstrap.com/

As strange as it sounds, there are not that many RADS allowing designing web apps. Most tool today put an emphasis on HTML/CSS/JavaScript code.

I believe Xojo Web with a full complement of modern controls akin to Bootstrap (not necessarily them per se) would be a real killer Web RAD. I believe the fantastic possibilities of the Xojo language and classes would be a tremendous asset, coupled with a powerful design IDE. Where it stings is that it would mean parting from the age old reverence for native controls only, and accepting the modern web. Although if the modern controls come as complementary to the old ones rather than replacement, compatibility with legacy code could be maintained.

Mind you, with some efforts, it is possible with the current controls to get close to what bootstrap does. But it is not as immediate. In that perspective, third party tools can be precious along the way.

Well, I think it is worthwhile to give it a try :wink: