The fact that Xojo is working on new features instead of fixing bugs is actually the root problem.
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A few that Iām familar with which are hybrid - part Open Source, part closed-source:
- Safari is closed source, but WebKit is open source
- macOS is closed source, but parts of its core are open source
Sure. Itās shareware. Users buy a license, they have it for life. Thatās it. Most of the functionality is included in the free version, but I keep some of the more complicated stuff locked away. Most users will come for the free stuff, realize all the stuff the paid version can do for them, and buy. My conversion rate is about 14%.
Itās open source so that somebody could look and see how a professional Xojo app is made. It includes build/installer scripts, which handle signing and notarization. Itās got everything from update checking, notification center, key-value observing, animations, a toolbar that can handle just about anythingā¦
Sure, somebody could take it and build it. But open source doesnāt mean unprotected. The branding, domains, signing keys, etc. are mine. Plus there is just community momentum. In my little niche, Iāve put about 6 other tools out of business. If you need my app, you probably already know it exists. Iām not really worried about somebody cloning my app to steal on business.
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You canāt do just one or the other. I am NOT saying Xojo is perfect in this regard. But bugfix releases donāt sell renewals or new licenses. This is a business, and there has to be a balance. You canāt just fix bugs and stay in business.
Weāve all been there. You find a bug, get frustrated, report it to Xojo, maybe they fix it and maybe they donāt. Regardless, since releases are so far apart, you canāt wait. You find a workaround. Now you donāt need their fix. Sure, itād be nice, but you donāt need it anymore. Itās less work and safer to keep using the workaround than to go back and undo your workaround. So youāre not going to shell out for a license renewal for a fix that you donāt need anymore.
That new feature is dramatically more likely to get somebody to renew their license.
Xojo frequently has more fixes than features in each release. Admittedly, new features tend to be the buggiest, but thatās true of any software. The ā.0ā is always the buggiest. The trouble is most Xojo releases are those ā.0ā releases. I think weād see a lot of improvement if we had the same 3-4 major releases per year, with an additional 2-3 bugfix releases in between.
But you canāt just stop adding features and hope for the best.
Tell that to all the well-known professional users who have abandoned Xojo because Web and iOS apparently arenāt usable.
I always renew because I want to support the company, even though as a primarily desktop developer I donāt actually have any major bug issues.
And where are all the users clamoring for new features, anyway? I donāt recall seeing any posts here asking for āappendā to be changed to āaddrowā or ātextā be changed to āvalueā. I do see a lot of posts here and elsewhere finding many bugs, but very very few requests for new āfeaturesā.
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Iām not sure your point. Iām not saying everything is sunshine and rainbows. Iām saying your solution of not introducing features isnāt viable.
Not surprising as the IDE is a Xojo desktop application. I.e. dogfooding in action.
It may surprise you, but we have at least one project for Desktop, Console, Web and iOS in house that we use for this purpose. Not all of them are public mind you, but they do exist.
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I canāt speak for Web as I donāt do any web projects.
For iOS I am the living proof that Xojo for iOS is usable and viable as a source of income.
Xojo for iOS does not fit all projects, I wouldnāt try developing Instagram or Candy Crush using Xojo.
But Xojo is a great tool for the 15 iOS apps I released and the 5+ million users who downloaded one of my apps.
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You said ābugfix releases donāt sell renewalsā. My point was that the departure from the platform of many prominent Xojo developers due to bugs not being fixed is evidence to the contrary.
Personally, the hope of bug fixes is a huge incentive for me to renew, much moreso than some new feature.
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Thanks, Jeremie, thatās great to hear!
I agree with Greg !!!
For me, security is an important issue. Someone from the team of programmers recently developed malicious code in Linux, so the university and the person in charge canceled their permission to access to modify.
Stories like these repeat themselves. According to them, it was to do ātests.ā
For the Java language, it took a long time to be safe. So far, it has not succeeded. It has many problems in its libraries. I remember when these were visible to everyone in readable text.
Whoever develops something like XOJO deserves to be well rewarded.
Another issue. Personally would like XOJO to offer the advances of the tool as quickly as possible. Iāve been waiting for the promise of Android with XOJO for years.
While the competition advances in offering improvements.
In my opinion, I feel XOJO is a little slower in this issue.
I understand that XOJO is a business. So they depend on the number of users who buy the tool to obtain better income and with this to facilitate more changes in a faster way.
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My point is counter to your point:
The only point Iām trying to make is that this isnāt true. Both need to exist. Yes, some members have moved on due to lack of bug fixes, but the points are not mutually exclusive. You can (and need to) develop new features while also fixing bugs. Your point implies that Xojo should stop new features entirely, which is not a viable business model. Nor is not fixing bugs. Xojo has to do both. That is my only point. Iām not trying to say Xojo didnāt drive away members. Iām not trying to say Xojo is fixing enough bugs, or found the right balance. Iām only saying that Xojo must do both.
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Yeah, right. Instead of perfecting oneās code, it is so easy to blame Xojo of all ailments, and pretend that if it went open source, it would be a panacea.
Humbug.
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IMHO I donāt think open sourcing any part of Xojo would solve things, rather create more problems.
Xojo Inc is, understandably, going to want to protect their work and IP in its totality. My assumption is that this post was to highlight frustrations that many bugs are either never fixed or take a long time to get resolved and new features can take a long time to be implemented (Iām thinking of Androidā¦), whereas changes like API 2.0 are implemented, presumably at the cost of bug fixes and features, with much less comparable appreciated benefit by most.
Xojo Inc create a product Xojo which users can opt to use if it fits their need. The fact we are here means it must fit a majority of our needs else we wouldnāt be here.
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As many of you have already said I think the point of this whole discussion is that we are sick and tired of not seeing bugs fixed. The open source route unfortunately I donāt see it being feasible.
I honestly couldnāt wait to get my hands on the future web version feedback system where I envisioned a new scoring system. Unfortunately we havenāt heard anything more about it.
It would be nice if in addition to the roadmap containing the new features, there was also the roadmap of future bug fixes. Iām sure that between the various release cycles there are priorities in this too.
Finally, as already mentioned some time ago, it would be very useful to divide the feedback ranking between features and bugs. Consequently a roadmap of bug fixes could be planned.
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This strikes me as dishonest and wrong. No one is saying these things and Xojo is far from a flawless tool.
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I agree with you, of course. Just frustrated with some of the āfeaturesā that resources have been allocated to over the past few years, when imo the time & money could have been better spent.
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Did you ever get RubberViewsWE to work?
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I donāt think you can separate the IDE from the Frameworks. The two are tightly coupled (which is a good/bad thing).
Iām not even sure how much of the compiler can be separated from the IDE and Frameworks. I know itās been on their radar for many years to be able to compile via the CommandLine and thatās not happened yet either. If it was āeasyā it probably would have happened by now.
Iāve been friends with many of the Xojo developers over the years. Iāve heard their own horror stories of making one innocuous change that affected something elsewhere in the product and it wasnāt immediately obvious what they did and how It affected that part. My point is that it takes a full-time person at least 6 months of full-time work to become competent in a really big project like the Xojo IDE and even then mistakes happen.
Open source is no panacea. It would take a major sea change for that to happen. Iām not arguing one way or the other but the perceived benefits are overblown, IMO. The community is small enough that Iām not sure thereād be enough momentum behind it anyway.
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