Listbox garbled with Direct2D

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  2. 4 months ago

    Julian S

    Jan 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro UK

    Doh :(

    Hope you work it out Massimo, that sucks.

  3. Massimo V

    Jan 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Julian S Doh :(

    Hope you work it out Massimo, that sucks.

    It really SUCKS, especially considering that Direct2D is now more than 1 year old and we must continue to use Xojo 2016 because of these problems.

    I'm super angry, also because it's years Xojo says they can't change this and that because "...it would break a lot of existing code." and suddenly they switch to Direct2D, without giving the ability to choose first. A compatibility mode would have been a wise move in this case.

    And now Norman also says this is not a Xojo problem, but it's an RDP issue.... :-/

    Thanks for your efforts Julian and every one tried to help me.

  4. Markus W

    Jan 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro #JeSuisHuman Germany, Heidelb...
    Edited 4 months ago

    @Massimo V Why should I use an alternative? I need a Listbox. The only thing I do on that listbox is drawing alternate row colors.

    Well, maybe because:

    "but I'm pretty sure this is an issue with Xojo and specifically with Listbox, due the garbled thing ONLY happens with the listbox. Other controls, aside of flickering issues, are ok."

    "And btw, it's not one customer, are MANY, with MANY users. I'm basically hated by hundred of people in these days"

    "Anyway, before I get fired,"

    But instead of being flexible and trying something else you'd rather be pig-headed about the issue, have many annoyed users who think of you as incompetent, give Xojo a bad reputation (maybe they will soon no longer accept Xojo apps where you work?), and keep on moaning here about it not working RATHER THAN TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT????

    Not. Smart. At. All.

  5. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Markus W
    But instead of being flexible and trying something else you'd rather be pig-headed about the issue, have many annoyed users who think of you as incompetent, give Xojo a bad reputation (maybe they will soon no longer accept Xojo apps where you work?), and keep on moaning here about it not working RATHER THAN TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT????

    Not. Smart. At. All.

    Markus, before judging me pig-headed and not smart you should probably know better about the situation. We work with a pretty big system made of tenth of different applications developed across years. We have our internal framework with control subclasses and lot of custom classes, controls, etc.
    Obviously we also have Listbox subclasses for doing some custom things and on this subject we can't use any different due any Canvas based listbox is basically too slow for our cases. But aside from the above, we can't easily change everything just because a Xojo control suddenly doesn't work anymore as expected. Next what? TextField? Canvas?
    Decide to change the Listbox with something else (if any suitable was available) would require us to rewrite a lot of code and maybe something would be not possible to redo.
    And this, at the scale we operate also has a monetary cost I can't justify.

    What many people around here don't understand is the difference of operating in a big enterprise environment, from deploying a simple application to a couple of customers.

    If I post here is to try finding a solution, not for moaning. Maybe you can try to help instead of just doing useless noise.
    If you have nothing useful to say, please go away, put this thread to ignore and shut up.

  6. Beatrix W

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers Europe (Germany)

    @Massimo V : yes, this is usually a lot of work, but Markus is correct. I've been in your place last year. Einhugur wasn't going to update his DataGrid. I wasn't able to make the component I bought work. After spending weeks with bugs and bugs and more bugs I gave up. For the better part of the year I had to tell customers that they needed to unload data before they could change the widths of the columns in the listbox. Then I spent again weeks implementing a new solution.

  7. Markus W

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro #JeSuisHuman Germany, Heidelb...

    @Massimo V If I post here is to try finding a solution, not for moaning.

    No, you're not.

    You already know the ListBox isn't working for you. Then why insist it SHOULD work for you?

    We ALL agree with you that it SHOULD work, but it DOESN'T. And no amount of moaning or wishful thinking is going to change that.

    Time to face reality.

    The solution is obvious.

  8. Markus W

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro #JeSuisHuman Germany, Heidelb...
    Edited 4 months ago

    Btw what happens if

    (a) you DON'T draw alternate row colours

    (b) move the ListBox to a different position or set it to a different size

    Does it only happen with THIS listbox or others too? If only this one then delete it and put a new one in.

  9. Markus W

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro #JeSuisHuman Germany, Heidelb...

    @Massimo V any Canvas based listbox is basically too slow for our cases

    ???

    Why do you say that?

  10. Derk J

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    @Massimo V Here it's another example of the problems I'm getting with Xojo 2017r3 Direct2D drawing and listbox:

    -image-

    This is from a customer using Windows Server 2008 R2 from a thin client.
    It happens random 2-3 times out of 10
    :-(

    Tell those customers to put their animation and such settings down. They have serious redrawing timing issues. This looks like vertical synch is not in synch. That could be because the system graphics load is too high, for the listbox to refresh or redraw intime. Windows server has these kind of issues probably because the systems arn’t that good in graphics.

  11. Tim H

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers Portland, OR USA

    I have to agree with Massimo on this one. With any sufficiently complex framework of subclasses, you have to select the Xojo version that best fits your criteria. Retreat back to 2016r3 and watch how this plays out. If it looks like Xojo isn't going to get this fixed, then you start looking at alternatives. But the best short-term solution is to revert back to a stable release.

    @Massimo V I'm super angry, also because it's years Xojo says they can't change this and that because "...it would break a lot of existing code." and suddenly they switch to Direct2D, without giving the ability to choose first. A compatibility mode would have been a wise move in this case.

    That's a valid response. Xojo upset the apple cart with this change, and now we're stuck with it (unless you choose not to embrace the new releases). I'll watch this one from the sidelines and stick to releases that work.

  12. Eugene D

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Canada scispec.ca

    @Massimo V Here it's another example of the problems I'm getting with Xojo 2017r3 Direct2D drawing and listbox:

    Hi Massimo,

    This looks very similar to Feedback Case #46069 that I reported in 2016r4 beta. I am not sure if you need to be a beta tester to view the feedback case. This lines/text were skewed on many of the controls, and the good news is that Xojo was able to fix it. This looks like an edge case with Windows 2008 R2 Server OS since this bug seems to be fixed on Windows 10 systems.

    All I can suggest is to let Xojo staff work on the feedback you created and give them time to fix it. Sorry to hear about the pain your going through.

  13. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Eugene D Hi Massimo,

    This looks very similar to Feedback Case #46069 that I reported in 2016r4 beta.

    But yours seems related to the IDE, while the problem here is in compiled applications.

  14. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Derk J Tell those customers to put their animation and such settings down. They have serious redrawing timing issues. This looks like vertical synch is not in synch. That could be because the system graphics load is too high, for the listbox to refresh or redraw intime. Windows server has these kind of issues probably because the systems arn’t that good in graphics.

    Animations and all graphics related options are off.
    Sure it can be anything, however the problem shows even under low load.

  15. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Markus W ???

    Why do you say that?

    Because this is my experience after testing a lot of different solutions, either from third party or self made.
    A canvas subclass listbox is simply not performing fast enough for our needs.
    You previously mentioned https://www.pidog.com/piDogScrollingCanvas/DataView.shtml . Try it with 15/20 columns min and with something like 2000 rows to see. And we have sometimes more rows/columns.
    And btw, can you imagine the flickering problems on Windows with canvas based stuff?

    We desperately need a better grid since years, supporting more options like pivot tables, draggable columns and much more but none is available. There are tons in Javascript for web as well for .NET and ZERO true alternatives for Xojo, only toy-grids which are nice to show a limited amount of data.
    For a minor project I ended up using a Javascript grid in a HTMLViewer, with a considerable amount of efforts and some hacks to communicate with the grid. But this was only to display data and for our mainstream solutions is not applicable.

  16. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    @Markus W Btw what happens if

    (a) you DON'T draw alternate row colours

    (b) move the ListBox to a different position or set it to a different size

    Does it only happen with THIS listbox or others too? If only this one then delete it and put a new one in.

    a) same problem
    b) same problem
    Others listboxes shows the same behavior, but for some reason this one allow me to reproduce the problem more easily.

    And to remark again: this is happening in many different applications/servers/RDP clients/customers therefore it's unlikely this is a sporadic problem of a single case.

  17. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    As I said before, I've now solved the crisis downgrading to Xojo 2016r3. Other than solving this problem this also solves a lot of other drawing problems we have with Xojo 2017r3.
    This costs us a lot of effort and a delay plan for switching to 64 bit but at least the customers are now happy again.

    Now I will start testing again 2017r3 to squash the existing problems and feed Xojo with some hints to hopefully solve those damn drawing issues. But for this I also need the Xojo cooperation on fixing the cases
    Feedback Case #50847
    Feedback Case #51030
    Feedback Case #50909

    I'm convinced these are somewhat related.

  18. Massimo V

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Germany, Würzburg)

    While we are this, let me to point this feedback case Feedback Case #48972 from August 2017 where I asked Xojo to please implement the Direct2D drawing as a choice.

    This case was closed because they won't implement it. Sad. :(

  19. Kevin G

    Jan 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Massimo V While we are this, let me to point this feedback case Feedback Case #48972 from August 2017 where I asked Xojo to please implement the Direct2D drawing as a choice.

    This case was closed because they won't implement it. Sad. :(

    This really cheeses me off. To force Direct2D onto us when it obviously hasn’t been tested basically makes anything after 2016r3 unusable. The fact that Xojo also did it before 64 bit was finished also means that 64 bit Windows GUI apps are also out of the question.
    Having the ability to switch between GDI+ and Direct2D until it was stable (like Carbon & Cocoa builds) should have been there initially.

    You have to wonder how much decisions like this cost Xojo financially due to existing customers not renewing and prospective customers not liking how crap the MS-Windows builds perform using Direct2D.
    It also leaves us developers with a potentially major decision to make of having to move away from Xojo because we need things like 64 bit but cannot use them due to major issues elsewhere in the product.

  20. Joost R

    Jan 14 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro The Netherlands

    @Kevin G , I had exactly the same feeling when it happened that I even could not move from 2016R3 to 2016R4 due to the sudden movement to D2D, at least not for one existing project. I also disapproved the way the xojo inc team has pushed this through our throat without any choice left and no understanding for the fact that our customers would experience a loss of performance of our applications. The only way to avoid having this is building with 2016R3.
    The movement to Chromium for HTML viewer also hit me, since I was using HTML Edit from @Tim P

    My tip would be: when archiving a project, make sure you also archive the xojo version and plugins you used to build the deliverable. When it happens you have to add or modify a little, you can just fall back on the archive version.
    But, to end positive, on the long run the move to the modern D2D was of course unavoidable.
    Meanwhile I started a new project for windows and mac with xojo 2017R3, and it turns out to work acceptable, unless some flickering on Windows of course.

  21. Emile S

    Jan 14 Europe (France, Strasbourg)

    @Joost R My tip would be

    And the license properties… Who knows when you will have to reload/modify the project.

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