Xojo Pro No Mo'

Is anyone saying that? I think everyone agrees there are problems, the question is, how deep are those problems and how can they be fixed? And since we users can’t fix them, what can we do workflow-wise to make our pain less?

[quote=26346:@Bad Wolf]When there is no serious problem with the navigator, there would not be so much people having difficulty with it. When someone like Bob Keeney who know Xojo inside out, says that the navigator doesn’t work, that must be true.

And yet the Xojo guys build Xojo with Xojo and don’t seem terribly on board with the “scrap it and go back” attitude. My own experience with several large projects tells me that the truth of this is somewhere on the continuum, but a lot closer to the Xojo way than many might recognize right now. I’d say more than 95% with a few behavior bugs ironed out, and 90% with those bugs in place.

Here’s something I know from making software for sale for more than 1/4 of a century… When you have a popular product, and you change something, there will always be a contingent of customers who either hate the particular change or just hate change in general. Take a page from the late 90s and call them the “Who Moved my Cheese?” crowd. You are going to lose some, many, or all of them. You are going to take harsh criticism from them. This is fact. Brace yourself for it, treat it as a trade-off, because human nature makes it unavoidable. And yet, if you’ve done your homework on how you’re going forward, this will be more than balanced by new capabilities the change gives you or new customers you’ve acquired. That’s the business math on this stuff. It’s not polite to talk about with passionate users, but it’s how this game works.

My recommendation to the disaffected is to figure out how to use Xojo effectively. If there’s one thing that came out of Bob’s report of his video-conference with Geoff, it’s that Geoff’s confidence in the new IDE and specifically the Navigator isn’t shaken one iota. He’s thinking years ahead when most here have had 2-6 months with the new IDE. I.e. there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that what was asked for – reverting to old tab based IDE model – is going to happen. You need to adjust your reality to that.

The way the Navigator behaves compared to the RS Project tab isn’t bringing in new customers. I’d bet there is not one user in the world that turned up their nose at RS because of the way that the Project Tab worked, but now is on board with Xojo because of how well they like new Navigator in Xojo. Not one.

I get that the old IDE was getting long in the tooth, looked dated and needed a face lift. I get that, I really do. That’s business decision they made. But if (note I said if), they ripped out the Navigator and put in something that looked newer but worked like the old Project Tab, that wouldn’t run off any business brought in how shiny the new interface is.

[quote=26358:@Brad Hutchings]And yet the Xojo guys build Xojo with Xojo and don’t seem terribly on board with the “scrap it and go back” attitude.

To be fair most are not saying scrap it all… just that the current design has significant usability issues that are NOT just bugs, and the designs requires some degree of rethinking… Most for sure think he old IDE was more efficient/usable. That is not the same as saying “scrap it and go back” . That certainly not what the #2 feature request asks for.

In any case how likely do you think its is that employees are going to speak out against their bosses decisions and the product that pays their salary in public?

That is a minority opinion from what I’ve seen.

Given the feature request is #2, never minds the posts here and elsewhere, it seems it is an unusually sizable contingent with the community.

Not much other choice for now, but when something that was a relative joy to use becomes a chore, people tend start looking elsewhere…

Obviously Bob has not rabble roused enough! :wink:

That’s a strawman, because you can’t measure it. Think of the “download and use the IDE for free” change as Jupiter and the navigator change as Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9. With that perspective, “I am not going to renew” has a certain proportion too. See Marc’s comment above. It’s a fair enough decision to make. Nobody is denying you your right to make it as you see fit. At some point, they’re counting on people who make such a decision to calm down and realize the balanced value of the purchase. Heck, they’re letting anyone develop for free now. They don’t see such people as free-loaders. They see them as some greater than zero probability of a future sale. You have to see things that way to be comfortable with this model.

To quote Bob’s feature request in full: “Please change the navigator so that it behaves closer to the Real Studio Project Tab where it only shows high level objects. Clicking on the object than loads the appropriate editor. The Code Editor is then closer in behavior to Real Studio as well.”

Maybe “scrap it and go back” means something different outside the South of Los Angeles world to which I am accustomed, but in these parts, it’s a pretty accurate summary of exactly what Bob asked for. :slight_smile:

Karen, 35 Pro users making that their number 1 item can account for all the Feedback points. One reason you don’t see a lot of pushback is that most of us know it was just venting and that Xojo will stay the course. If in the future, there needs to be a giant p—ing match over this, I’m sure I could make just as much noise as Bob did. In the meantime, I’ll save my friend points in the community for something that matters more.

Brad you take things out of context and exaggerate quite a bit… kind of makes having a discussion with you futile.

For others here the feature request is not to scrape the Navigator but to " Make Navigator only show objects"…

The key issue with teh Navigator is that it shows too much detail which is what facilitates getting lost.

Bob and most reasonable people know there is no way it is going to be scraped … but the majority (of which Brad is not part) seems to think it needs significant changes.

I repeat when something that was a relative joy to use becomes a chore, people tend start looking elsewhere.

Perhaps one of my biggest gripes against the new IDE has to do with input focus. This is not a new class of bugs for RB, RS, or Xojo, especially on Windows and doubly so on Linux*. Later versions of RS greatly ameliorated the problems, but Xojo scrapped all those improvements and introduced it’s own version of input focus madness.

For example, in 2013r2 (Windows) the code editor will steal scrollwheel messages once it receives keyboard focus, even if the mouse is over the Navigator; considering the amount of scrolling necessary to use the Navigator (and forget using the arrow keys… it loses focus on selection change!) or the Inspector (even after the spacing was tightened up) this is a major annoyance and time sink for me.

The use of custom controls to create a Mac-alike look only exacerbates the problem (to say nothing about how out of place it looks and how unresponsive it feels under Windows.) For example the pretty, rounded menus or the pretty, rounded toggle switches. Neither accept tabs or KB input! Windows can be configured to track mouse focus separately from keyboard focus, a basic function that native win32 controls get for free.

Native controls may not be as stylish as Xojo likes, but they are far more functional and robust from a user perspective. They are designed with the understanding that scrollwheels are not rare (on Windows or Linux PCs,) and that keyboard input is not deprecated.

*at least historically, I haven’t used the Linux IDE since circa 2008

My solution to dealing with Xojo slowness and behavior patterns is to develop my applications using 2012R2.1, debug them in 2013R2.1 and when they work open them in Xojo so I can make a cocoa version. This works for all of my applications except for the one using Xojoscript, which is an improvement on RBScript. These I must work in Xojo, which slows productivity significantly still, even though I have put at least 20 hours into Xojo development. Perhaps I am a slow learner, but I think most of the problem is with Xojo.

While I join in all the complaints about workflow and speed in the Xojo IDE, Xojo is finally creating cocoa applications which run properly. On the other hand, Xojo generates Windows programs that are much less stable than those generated in 2012R2.1. I have been forced to generate all my Windows apps using RB. Xojo and Windows needs serious attention. Some of my Windows apps that run just fine under 2012R2.1 crash without usefull feedback on Xojo. I cannot file any useful feedback when the IDE simply returns from a run without doing anything at all, as if nothing happened. This is quite common for my Windows apps.

I guess I take feature requests seriously Karen. Kinda like voter petitions. What they actually say matters before I sign. YMMV. And frankly, I’m trying to help some of you beyond the complaining stage and into a productive stage because there is a productive stage in this if you open yourself to it.

The way this will unfold, based on 12+ years of watching things unfold in this little community. Xojo will stay the course. Some people will leave and try to burn the house down on the way out. A year from now, most will be very happy with the new IDE, which will be much more like the current new IDE than Real Studio. Just seems to me that the no brainer move to preserve any investment current users have in this tool is to avail themselves to adapting. There are some pretty impressive projects that have done this successfully enough to show it’s more than possible.

This was my experience. I didn’t convert over old projects but did start a new one with a xojo beta. Initially I defended the design and maybe even lobbed a few snarky comments at the detractors because, when projects are small it’s kinda handy to fiddle with the tree. Then the project grew and I started experiencing that “lost” feeling, the navigator became more of an albatross, and suddenly Bobs cantankerous commentary seemed more like sage wisdom.

By barking at everyone that disagrees with your position? Interesting approach. Thanks for the offer to help, but I’m beyond that. I’ve read how people say they are using it successfully and to be honest it didn’t cut down on my scrolling, clicking and searching much. Bottom line: I don’t like it. It is painful. It makes me much less productive. And I don’t have to do it, I have other options at this point.

That’s what I was going to do, but I have some issues with the Einhugur grid that I can’t get worked out in Xojo. I would have re-upped if I could just get the thing to run/build the same in Xojo (order of redraw issues) and just do my coding in RS. I have a deadline in early September, after that I am going to give it another shot.

It’s currently a two-way street, Steve. If another platform suits your requirements at the moment then by all means… run with it. Until then, complaining on the forums (speaking from experience) does no good. It doesn’t even give much satisfaction just to vent, because what’s been said by us has been said 100 times already. Reality is, they can’t please everybody. They make a significant change, and there’s a selection of people who aren’t going to like/agree with it. Unfortunately, you stand in the later group. I don’t think it’s going to change much. Adapt, be eaten, or move to another environment where you’re the big dawg. There’s no other options… wish there was.

Who said anything about another platform? I’m talking about using RS2012r2.1 which works just fine for what I do. It you don’t want to voice your opinion about a big issue that’s your business. But when an Enterprise users decides not to re-up, I think they would like to hear the reason why.

I’m sorry… perhaps I was confused. Regardless, carry on then.

[quote=26291:@Steve Williams]You can start here:


and note that 80+ people responded. Then, follow this Xojo thread:


and see how the item shot up to #2 in the Feedback. I am very glad it is working for you, really I am. But it is frustrating a ton of users. [/quote]
Yes there are 80 responses to bob post - there’s no doubt there
And yes the item is #2
80 respondents is a small (very small) but vocal minority out of ALL license holders.
Even the threads on the forums have involved a minority(there are 2300+ accounts) so 80 is roughly 4-5% of all users on the forums (which is still only a portion of all license holders)

That doesn’t mean we’ll just ignore this - but it also doesn’t make this an “OMG drop everything” kind of priority.

We’ve made some fixes for R3 and we’re contemplating some more for other future releases.

It seems from my perspective that there was a lot of barking at people who actually like the new IDE. I genuinely like it. Not to toe the company line or kiss anyone’s ■■■■. I like it. I see where it’s been and where they are going and I’m comfortable with that. I trust that they have better insight into any productivity issues than any of the critics, mostly because they have the largest product that hits the IDE the earliest. And I know there are others that feel that way to. So we’re kind of at an impasse here.

Regardless of your barking though, if you think they’re going to change direction because you, Steve, don’t like the new IDE, you’re more than a little presumptuous. It’s a big change and they will lose some people with it. I think they have enough experience in this game to be fine with that at some level. They have to be. And that makes the best option for you, Steve, to figure out a way to get over this and get with the program at some point, because the source you have written will someday need the framework fixes that are bundled with the IDE you can’t stand. You are a data point among many, not the entire data set. Worth keeping that in mind while you “negotiate”.

This is weird. That’s exactly what I said when the RS license dialog said my Update Plan had expired. Isn’t life funny?

I’m going to just file this in the “No ■■■■, Sherlock” folder and be done with it. I’m not barking at anyone, I just posted at the start that I wasn’t renewing my subscription because the Navigator is too painful to work with. You guys that don’t agree with my position are the ones that chimed in, no one asked ya. Geoff can read it and pitch it in the waste basket if he wants, that’s his call. My call is whether I pull out the CC right now or not.

[quote=26396:@Steve Williams]This is weird. That’s exactly what I said when the RS license dialog said my Update Plan had expired. Isn’t life funny?
Been there done that myself - I was an end end user just like anyone else for far longer than I’ve been an employee (that’s still true)
And there were a couple spots along the 15+ year journey where I did not update right away - 2005 was actually one of those as the change from the old IDE to that one (which you have in 2012 and earlier) was painful.

I’m not giving up, I’ll be patient and see what r3 and r4 looks like. Just can’t use it right now, so no point in extending my update plan right now. Good luck.