But … it’s working all over europe…
…
Price is not everything. At tv, there was a episode about luca app, hm….
Remember the old times, with batch processing and terminals.
One was happy to process data fast…not more…
Today the world is different, and the winner is data center,…
BR Rainer
I just wanted to clarify a few things here.
The rapid release model was adopted in 2005.
Though not the topic of this thread, posts are rarely edited or deleted. Moderators are very careful to follow the forum guidelines. No one is typing in 1000 years to ban anyone, that is just what the forum software does. I think it’s a little strange too, but we can’t change that right now. And we do not ban people lightly, in 20+ years we have only ever permanently suspended 4 users for clear rules violations after many warnings and with full explanations. We want the forum to be as productive and constructive as possible so we try to follow the guidelines very objectively.
We continue to be an engineering-led company. We know what the top requests are and we focus on those that affect the most people.
10 Likes
Weeee Hal is stuck in posting yoyo land, did he post, did he not, sad state of affairs.
Thanks for the clarity Dana, but it would have been nice to have some Xojo input other than comment corrections. Like a comment on Xojo is technical dept - #117 by JulianS or any of the other questions.
As for the comment about being engineer led I’ll just quote Geoff from feedback regarding just working on bugs “…the other side effect of such a plan would be that we would get no press at all…”, so it would seem you are not just engineering led.
As for that link we know what happened when it was posted originally Latest blog post, what goes into Xojo - General - Xojo Programming Forum.
The problem isn’t with the rapid release model per se, it’s that fact that some important bugs found after the release aren’t addressed on the next release and they are left to languish in feedback diminishing the impact of the original release ad nauseam.
5 Likes
It is a state of affairs when we have to delete posts that violate our guidelines but when they are flagged and found to do so, we will delete them.
We don’t currently offer this.
6 Likes
You nailed it, and that is the reality of life. Everyone want’s the perfect product and for free, but that is not the world we live in. Almost all product use decisions are a compromise of competing requirements.
I’ve bought products that had stellar marketing and the engineering was poor and the product did not live up to the hype. At the same time I have used unbelievably well engineered products, but the company had no marketing or sales skills and they went under.
The fact that Xojo is still around after all these years in the face of brutal competition means they must be doing something right. IF there was a significantly better product, Xojo would cease to exist, yet here they are…
8 Likes
Thanks for the clarification. Mixed that up with the introduction of the Xojo IDE.
Doesn’t change the fact that what I predicted has happened … but then it wasn’t a difficult prediction to make.
Seriously? You want to tell us you can’t change that setting? Who’s responsible for setting up the forum? And how did Dave get 2,000 years? And banning Norman??? 
… and I explained ad nauseum that the feedback system is heavily skewed towards feature requests as by their very nature feature requests are cumulative (EVERYONE wants iOS or Listbox headers or Pdf support or …) but bugs are singular (a my bug might not affect you, and your bug might not effect me).
So “the top requests” do not give a reliable picture, but as Xojo believes “bug fixes don’t sell licenses” I don’t expect anything to change there - see your customary reply that you “know the top requests”. So why do I even bother explaining the problems with feedback when Xojo continues to pretend the inherent problems don’t matter? My guess is that you can point to the feedback system and argue “most of the top cases are feature requests” and “new features sell licenses” - but only by ignoring the inherent bias. And that is why Xojo is sales driven and has become so unreliable to many Pros that they had no choice but to move (Thorsten’s company had over 100 Xojo licenses, and he was very vocal and practically begged Xojo to concentrate on bug fixes).
But then Bob was told that Pros are no longer Xojo’s target … so why am I still clinging to the hope that stability and reliability (aka engineering led) may make a comeback? After all, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” - the problems are inherent. Systemic. And I don’t see that changing.
I feel like an idiot.
Markus, You state a lot of assumptions here like they are facts while also ignoring things that have been asked and answered. Regardless, I will address a few of your statements:
Read the link Dana sent. This is a default for Discourse.
Also, who cares!? Banned for life, banned for 2000 years, 1000 years, 4 billion years. 5 people have been unable to follow guidelines and are banned. Period.
lol, no.
Xojo targets professional developers among other groups.
I’m not going to go through your post sentence by sentence pointing out things we’ve said already. Why should I say again that we are engineering driven, why should I link to that blog post that also states that when all you are going to do is state your opinion over this fact? Same for “bug fixes don’t sell licenses”, which you put in quotes insinuating it’s a quote from Xojo but didn’t say from whom or where. Product reliability is and will continue to be a huge priority for Xojo.
We aren’t some evil corporation. We are normal people trying to do our jobs and take some time to answer questions here. We wish we could make everyone happy but that is never possible. You can take these facts and agree to disagree but constantly berating Xojo and the employees trying to help on the forum is not productive. Now, I have work to do.
23 Likes
Many of them did not want to leave but felt forced to leave. But still sort of want to come back but cannot because of the low quality state usually.
But the fact their still there commenting and possibly want to come back means there might still be time to get things right and focus on the quality, since without quality all is more or less lost in the long run which is what we been seeing lately.
9 Likes
At one time many of them (including some who have been banned) were enthusiastic boosters of RB/Xojo and some were contributors of some of the most significant open source Xojo code to the community…
It would make sense for Xojo inc do some self examination about how and why that came to be.
-Karen
8 Likes
If they were entirely engineering led, there would be no sales or marketing departments and after a while, no income.
1 Like
Possibly a company needs to be a certain size before it dares do this, especially in the US. Otherwise you have your NDA in your hand, but the other outfit has your code and proceeds to ignore the NDA. A small company can’t aford to go to law over such a matter.
1 Like
That isn’t even an argument. You are “answering” a question nobody has asked or even any interest in asking … 
I’m happy to put up some of my graphs and analyses but I’m pretty sure that will get me banned for a million years … 
Because I go by what I get from Xojo, no longer by what Xojo says I’m getting.
Have you fixed MapLocation yet? Or is it still pretty useless in the upcoming release 2021 R2? In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m happy to send you my article in xDev 21.3 …
That can be changed.
If you don’t care that it makes you look like 
then be my guest …
I know the people, I know the story, and they should not have been banned forever. 30 days? MAYBE fine, though I disagree on that too. But FOREVER? In that case I do hope you refunded all the money they paid.
lol, yes.
Because now you are down to semantics, but I’m happy to elaborate the point. Thorsten requires from his customers to buy their own Xojo Pro license, so semantically you are right. But with him 114 of his customers moved to Java - which means Xojo lost those customers.
But if you want to argue semantics be my guest - that has been Xojo’s problem all along. Remember the “Xojo is native on M1” fiasco …?
https://www.bkeeneybriefs.com/2019/11/im-not-xojos-target-audience-is-anyone/
And I know you read “the other forum that dare not speak its name here”, so you know that a lot of those Pro users left and why. People like Bob Keeney (ActiveRecord, Full Text Control, Shorts, etc), Axel Schneider (lots of little gems), Tim Dietrich (Aloe Express, Luna, etc), Hal Gumbert (Xanadu), Alain Bailleul (AlwaysBusyCorner, fantastic tutorials, ABmaterials) etc. - it’s not because of new features, it’s because of the deteriorating quality and not listening to them when they say “that’s a really bad idea” during beta testing.
And that has a knock-on effect. Less experience and knowledge on the forum, less customers for 3rd party plug-ins (a must for most professional developers but not for “citizen developers”), and a leg up for the competition.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot …
Geoff.
Glad to hear that, but the proof is in the pudding as they say …
Oh, I whole-heartedly agree - I know the problem is at the top.
When you have a direct BASIC competitor that started 10-15 years later, has amassed 10 times as many active developers, and has its users (especially former Xojo users) raving about how powerful, elegant and stable it is, while Xojo is haemorrhaging its most productive users … then maybe, just maybe, it’s time to consider that Xojo might be doing something wrong.
I can understand that as an employee you have to toe the company line. It’s your job after all. But you are up against people who have build their business on Xojo and find that they no longer can sustain it on Xojo. What they tell you is that the level of bugginess has become too great. Yes, most were very enthusiastic about the Rapid Release Model and eager to get those shiny new features - and now they finally realize the price they are paying for it. Many moved, and I know more here on the forum who are considering it.
Should I be quiet? Pretend everything is fine? Then how do you effect change? Talk to Geoff directly? A lot of people did that - the essence was that he knows best. Nothing changed, the people left, and the slide continued.
And I seriously hope that Xojo gets its house in order and that you will have that job for a long time to come …
2 Likes
Hal Gumbert had FOUR posts deleted in this thread, none of which violated any forum rules.
… and then you banned Hal. That’s so ridiculous that I don’t know whether to cry or laugh. Care to explain why? Or is that harassment and I get banned next?
Markus, I’ve already said how berating Xojo employees isn’t productive. Please stop. You have no idea what flags the moderators get for any posts. You don’t know the number of complaints we get about these threads that spin in circles complaining about whatever flavor of outrage is popular this week. Posts were flagged, warnings were issued and guidelines were broken which resulted in a ban. And if you need proof we don’t ban or delete lightly, take my reply as just that. I’m here trying to reason with you on a Friday night while my family plays a board game.
9 Likes
@Alyssa_Foley Please go play with your family, that is far more important. I mean that in the most honest way I can mean that.
Edit: Your dedication should be rewarded, but it shouldn’t eat into family time.
10 Likes
I’ve seen Hal’s posts. He was replying to another post. Just because someone was in a bad mood and flagging it (possible the one he replied to didn’t like being contradicted) doesn’t mean it should have been removed. And certainly not him getting banned.
But I agree with Sam. Put the phone away and concentrate on Family. Then tomorrow have a look at whether someone wasn’t overreacting about Hal.
And I’ll keep my mouth shut till Monday so that you can enjoy the weekend … 
2 Likes
Have you looked at the cost of the top Pascal RAD IDE? It is a LOT more expensive than Xojo and it has many many more users (even if Xojo says that no one uses pascal any more 
) It is NOT only about the price, but the quality of the product.
Well, “still existing” with a tiny market share, in a growing market it is not really a positive thing.
Monday is a holiday in the US so maybe make that Tuesday!
-Karen
5 Likes
Not to be nit-picky, but nobody paid any money to be a forum member.
3 Likes
Frankly, this thread has lost it. Feels like some forum members need to get a life.
Muting it.
9 Likes