Thank you Olivier.
This will be my last post here, but you know where to find me.
https://xojo.jeannot-muller.com/xojo-my-final-review-c24371908736
1 Like
What an irresponsible statement from the CEO. Do you know what technical support means.
4 Likes
Amazing the irrational amount of love to hate relationship some have with Xojo.
5 Likes
Yes, I know what it means. When companies say they provide technical support, that means they answer questions about their product or service. That’s separate from providing updates to their product.
As much as text is a great way to communicate, sometimes being able to discuss something face to face is more productive. To that end, I would be happy to set up a time this coming week to discuss web 1/web 2 on Zoom for those that are interested.
If you’re interested, reply and let me know. It will likely be at 1PM CT since we have found that works best globally. Tuesday would be ideal I think.
3 Likes
yes, it’s true!
It’s a good idea. In my case, I don’t speak English (I write with the help of Google/DeepL), but I’m sure others can have a fruitful discussion with you, for example @Lars_Lehmann , @Jeannot_Muller , @Christian_Schmitz , @Ivan_Tellez , and others of course!
1 Like
I’m glad to hear that the translation technology is good enough to make it possible for you to participate here in English. I remember a long time ago talking to a friend Japanese friend. I gave him a message that I had translated into Japanese using Google. He said it was unintelligible. At the time, it was far better going to English than from English apparently. I guess it’s far better now.
2 Likes
I appreciate your answers full of pragmatism, and often with an implicit call to keep your cool. Don’t generalize your case though. Not all situations are the same. In the case of a small BtoB company whose whole activity is based on a single complex ERP developed with the web framework for more than 10 years, it’s complicated, even waiting for it not to work. Because it will take more than a few months to repair (if it is possible, and we have seen that it is unlikely) or migrate. There are hundreds of business customers of the company who expect us to provide continuity of service.
2 Likes
Yes, progress has been slow, but now it is more and more effective! The competition from DeepL has helped things along too. And perhaps translation is less effective with non-Latin languages. In my case, all my messages are written with DeepL, and I sometimes do a double check with Google, with a new translation in the other direction, to check and adapt.
Thank you, I assume I’m not meant by the invitation, since I’m no longer a customer and that won’t change in the foreseeable future. But since some suspect that I’m still being addressed, I’ll answer a last time:
Web 1 will not be further developed, but we can still ask questions by phone or via hello@xojo.com (called “support”). We probably shouldn’t open “Issues” because that only blocks resources, if old bugs are no longer being fixed anyway. I got the message from day one, though your statements at that time left (on purpose?) room for “interpretation”.
However, if there is an interest from Xojo Inc.
- to learn why pros cannot simply migrate from Web 1 to Web 2,
- what stumbling blocks our customers see,
- why some of our customers doubt our sanity because those customers are now feeling badly advised by us in the past,
then I can imagine that a few veterans might be willing to attend.
On the other hand, there have already been such talks in the past with no perceived change in attitude.
Personally, I like asynchronous communication, and while written communication is more cumbersome and time-consuming, and sometimes not as precise, it is known to be more sustainable than any undocumented verbal promises / comments.
Virtual meetings and calls are by nature most often not sustainable at all.
For example, I have written promises to my customers that the new Web 2 will fix bugs known from Web 1 and that we had to wait for the new release together. As a reminder: Web 1 didn’t get much love long before Web2 was in testing!
After the birth of Web 2, I had to write to the same customers that the new product works completely different, looks different and of course contains new bugs.
Believe me, I wish I hadn’t put that in writing back then but run a virtual meeting. Consequently I think I understand what you have in mind, but I doubt that it will benefit anyone. There is a reason why most contracts are in written form.
3 Likes
I won’t attend either @Geoff_Perlman, but thanks for that offer. We had a personal conversation already and you said the same things to as you wrote on Blog „we will provide support to you as soon there are breaking changes in the OS or web browsers.“
What I didn’t understood at this point, what you actually meant with „support“. We two have a deep difference here in our understanding of „Support“.
My perception until the last week was also that you will try, or at least will be able to update the last Web1-IDE when necessary.
You stated, that you definitely won’t do that and that you’re hardly able to.
That is the answer I need, there’s nothing more to discuss. It just tells us the direction we have to head and that we need to hurry up. Lesson learned.
Thanks for the clear statements. Even bad messages are often better than half baked ones.
3 Likes
In the blog post (Yes, We Still Support Your Web 1.0 Projects – Xojo Programming Blog), I said:
“Having said that, should you discover that your app is failing in some way due to an OS or web browser update, please contact us and we will do what we can do resolve the issue.”
That continues to be true.
1 Like
You would absolutely be welcome as would anyone interested in this topic. Written communication has its place of course but it leaves out a lot. Face to face meetings can always be summarized in text afterwards if necessary.
I came from VB and 10 years ago I decided to migrate more than 15 years of codding and products to Xojo.
Big decision and huge migrating job.
I have the chance to move from VB to .Net but I preffered not to it.
With Xojo I had the chance to continue my business with a very familiar programming language, improving my products during all these years, and adding web versions.
Web 1 was so simmilar to desktop ones that for all those years and also today I believe that my decision was the very rigth one.
This kind of discussion/oppinions make me fill quite unconfortable and worried because we have a quite small but a great community, and discussing about company policies is not productive.
I do what I believe is the best for my own company, and Xojo Inc polices are the ones they believe are the best for them and also for the majority of developers (not for all… that is impossible)
I do not move yet my web apps from Web 1 to Web 2. May be when I start doing so I will have to deal with similar problems to the ones many of the ones of you had already deal with.
Probably after reading all this post, I will have to develope web apps from scratch and I will not be happy about.that.
When I migrated from VB to Xojo, I do receive lot of support from the Xojo team and also from the community, and I am sure that I will continue receiving the same in the process to Web 2.
And of course I would like that Xojo could have the chance to give me a simple path to do so, but I understand that for a technical or an economical reasons they couldn’t.
So, not trying to private anyone to say what feels and wants. to say, I would suggest to all the nice people of this community to expend the time looking for a more possitive an colaborative understanding that Xojo Inc is doing what it feel better for them and also for all developers that, with total freedom decided to use this programming language.
I am sure that Xojo could understand the.large cost developers have to migrate from web1 to web 2, and developers could understand that economically speaking is not convinient for Xojo Inc to correct all bugs known from Web 1, but could be a middle point where escencial needs of developers and cost of attending that needs, could joint. In my particular case I could accept to pay an extra license cost in order to suppot some Xojo expenses on improving escencial aspects of Web 1.
Just an idea that could represent a win-win situation.
(Sorry for my english)
4 Likes
Including the release of updates when necessary?
Is this included in „ we will do what we can do resolve the issue“?
It seemed to be very important to you to state that it’s not entirely impossible to build an update for 2019R3.2
See, thats the point where the „confusion“ comes from.
I also now understand that „your application“ means something different than the IDE. You help us keep the apps running „with everything you can do“, but keep the IDE running is not included.
As I said, most of us just had different perceptions of what you will and can do when something breaks.
A lot of issues in Web 1.00 can be addressed with JavaScript.
As for 2019R3.2, it runs like clockwork under macOS Ventura, and my Mac Mini M1.
2 Likes
sorry for my noobiness about xojo web, but what is so important change, (some people says bootstrap ?) from web 1 to web 2 ? is there a recap page about it ? anyway new project use web 2. I know nothing about html site dev, . why is it so long to update from web 1 to web 2 ?
I have never used Xojo web, like many desktop only user, but i find it cool that i can take xojo code to web app and this year I did in no time, I’m enthousiastic about using xojo web regarding his pootentials and limits.
but i think people expect too much from Xojo web. this is not a VueJS like framework, and i think it is developper’s decision to use xojo web in prod.
I will never personnaly use it for high concurrency stuff, it’s not made to do that.
But from I see, it works well for some cases, but i’m doing simple things didn’t bump into limits.
1 Like
Yes, it’s more a theoretical problem right now. Fortunately.
It would be an honor to participate. The result of this talk may mean a change that affects my business.
It would be great to be able to conclude.
I have used web1 and web2. I see that the web format is more robust and can grow in processes that automate development, to looking for web 2 to be the tool to create web applications in record time.
1 Like
I must be overlooking something. On the one hand, you say you are concerned that Xojo has not promised to keep the 2019R3.2 IDE running in the future, and then admit that it still runs fine a few macOS releases later.
So if or when the 2019 IDE does not work in a future macOS release, shouldn’t it still be possible to run a virtual machine with a macOS version which still does run the 2019R3.2 IDE? Even if you don’t keep hardware around that can run it, virtual machines should still work even with Mx based machines beyond Big Sur.
There are people on this forum who still do compiles for some things using a much older IDE, I think in particular for some graphics stuff under Windows. But my point is that if the IDE works for you now, that even if it should break in the future that mostly means you have to still run it under an OS release that supports the IDE. Be that hardware or virtual machine based.
I’d be much more worried about future changes that may break a user experience than that of the IDE. Yet that seems like exactly what Xojo claims they will attempt to help resolve.
Granted, I don’t have any web 1 apps in the wild, so I don’t have a horse in this race. But if I did, I think the IDE would be the least of my worries if it still runs and builds fine in Ventura.
2 Likes