You are Eli, 1.0 does just fine for most web apps written in Xojo. 1.1 becomes necessary in most cases where communicating with a transaction handler such as Paypal becomes necessary. I would not lose sleep for my regular web applications because of http 1.00 only just yet.
I get the feeling you are what we would call a citizen developer. Someone who uses Xojo for work but isn’t a full time developer. If that’s the case, you are in a group that represents 50% of our users so yes, we are certainly focused on that market. We may not always agree on everything but the citizen developer market is very important to us.
A littlebit off-topic but still xojo related.
@Geoff Perlman
Is Xojo actually made future proof ? Is it meant to last longer than the retirement of the core people behind Xojo? Could you explain the future of Xojo, the team behind it and the Xojo IDE ? I guess we all would like to know if Xojo will keep backing us, while we keep backing Xojo.
I must say the IDE is a really unique piece, but is it meant to last?
[quote=359164:@Geoff Perlman]I get the feeling you are what we would call a citizen developer. Someone who uses Xojo for work but isn’t a full time developer.
[/quote]
True… I have been doing that for about 30 years, though obviously not all with Xojo/RS/RB… that has only been the last 17 years.
BTW did I made a little money on the side with my listbox subclass.
[quote]
If that’s the case, you are in a group that represents 50% of our users so yes, we are certainly focused on that market. We may not always agree on everything but the citizen developer market is very important to us.[/quote]
All I can do is tell you how things feel to me… and I think it’s clear that others have some of the same feelings too.
- Karen
[quote=359167:@Derk Jochems]A littlebit off-topic but still xojo related.
@Geoff Perlman
Is Xojo actually made future proof ? Is it meant to last longer than the retirement of the core people behind Xojo? Could you explain the future of Xojo, the team behind it and the Xojo IDE ? I guess we all would like to know if Xojo will keep backing us, while we keep backing Xojo.
I must say the IDE is a really unique piece, but is it meant to last?[/quote]
I’ve been in the development tools business nearly my entire adult life. I’ve seen development tools come and go. Why do they go? Because they don’t stay up to date. I don’t mean adopting something new right away. I mean that they don’t make the changes necessary to allow users to build apps for the current platform or platforms. If there’s anything I’m paranoid about, it’s this. So when the engineers want to spend time refactoring code to make it easier to maintain, we try to always make time for that. When there are new libraries we could be using, when the industry is moving to X, whatever it is, we pay attention to these trends and make the necessary adjustments so that Xojo will stay relevant. We can’t always do that on the time frame that would make everyone happy but we do it nonetheless.
Is Xojo meant to last? Considering how long Xojo has been around and how many transitions it’s been through, I would argue that Xojo has one of the best reputations in the industry in terms of this. You could take projects from version 1 (released in 1998) and while you’d have to go through some project file format upgrades, once you got your project open in the current release, it likely wouldn’t take all that much to get it building. That says a lot. I’m not saying Xojo is bug-free. Far from it. However, most tools, heck most software, has bugs. We do our best to stomp out the important ones that get in your way. We typically fix 100 or more bugs in each release cycle.
We are Xojo users just like you. We build nearly everything in Xojo. The things not built in Xojo are by far the exception here. You don’t see most of them. They help us run all the administrative and engineering processes required to manage things. However, we do use it constantly. Personally, while I don’t do much of any direct development on Xojo itself, I do a lot of design work and I make sure I always have Xojo projects upon which I’m working so I have the same experience users like yourself have.
From an engineering point of view, we use best practices in terms of coding standards, code reviews, documentation and more to make sure that the code is not dependent upon any one individual. There’s no area of Xojo that hasn’t seen multiple engineers develop it over the years. We’ve been at this since 1998 and while there have been several engineers that have come and gone, that has not slowed us down. So yes, I would say we have done a good job of future-proofing Xojo. More evidence of this is the long list of transitions we have been through over the last 19 years since we shipped version 1. Having said that I’m proud to say that our average annualized turnover rate is only 5%. That puts us amongst the best technology companies in the world.
We are not perfect. We are a group of human beings so we are going to make mistakes. However, we work tirelessly to make Xojo the best it can be and will continue to do so. No one can predict the future or guarantee what will happen but I think after 19 years we have shown that we are a company that sticks around.
This is the stat I repeat to people most often regarding Xojo. There are lots of these sorts of tools that have come and gone, but to be around for so long and to still being pushing into new fields, is really reassuring and helpful in selling the tool to clients.
Perhaps Xojo Inc can find a better way to hear our opinions on things such as the direction of the new framework. We need an outlet and we’re passionate and want to help. I don’t believe open-sourcing would help any part of the product (I, for one, would be alarmed), I don’t think we know better than you guys and I don’t think it should be a case of design by committee (that never works), but nonetheless, an outlet for our thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. For example, Sw*ft has several official mailing lists that steer the evolution of the language - it’s open-sourced, of course, but nonetheless, there’s discussion by users and decisions by higher-ups.
I know we have Feedback but such discussions are lost in the bug reports. Perhaps it would be useful for a separate area of Feedback to be set aside for discussion on topics that Xojo Inc could request our feedback on, at that particular time, away from the forums and away from bug reports.
Not sure feedback would work well as a “discussion” as thats really not its purpose so its not very good at that.
A channel on the forums might be more conducive
[quote=359178:@Norman Palardy]
A channel on the forums might be more conducive[/quote]
The problem with this is that it is apparently too public. The passion in this community occasionally is construed as straight up negativity rather than constructive criticism. If Joe Public pokes their head in on such a discussion, it can leave a very sour taste in their mouth about the product, the company, and the user base. It has been made clear that the forums need to be a place that at least reflects a more-or-less positive attitude towards the IDE, framework, company, and surrounding ecosystem.
I think a different place is in order as well. If not Feedback, then somewhere else that is not so public but is easy to use.
I understand. Just know that we are always listening. We won’t always agree and we won’t always be able to reveal our future plans but users like yourself are a significant focus for us and as Norman has said, the new framework is a work in progress. I am reasonably confident that in the long run, Xojo will continue to be a tool you can count on and enjoy using.
I hope some day you will come to XDC. You’ve been a user for so long and I would really like to meet you in person.
We could create a private channel on the forum. It would have to be invitation only.
Xojo is not incentivized to operate a medium for criticism and passionate users are not incentivized to express their views in a vacuum. Thus ultimately you arrive precisely where we are where the channels available are the ones exercised.
Nobody wants Xojo to be damaged and everyone wants to use Xojo as much as possible for his or her own reasons. There is going to have to be some trust placed in the community about design decisions early enough that changes can be made.
Secrecy breeds misunderstanding and resentment. I have none and neither should anyone else but who likes working harder when it would be easy to make it better.
[quote=359183:@Phillip Zedalis]Xojo is not incentivized to operate a medium for criticism and passionate users are not incentivized to express their views in a vacuum. Thus ultimately you arrive precisely where we are where the channels available are the ones exercised.
Nobody wants Xojo to be damaged and everyone wants to use Xojo as much as possible for his or her own reasons. There is going to have to be some trust placed in the community about design decisions early enough that changes can be made.
Secrecy breeds misunderstanding and resentment. I have none and neither should anyone else but who likes working harder when it would be easy to make it better.[/quote]
There are conflicting issues here. We cannot be public with everything. Too many times what was discussed as a hope or possibility is remembered as a promise. That has caused us to become less transparent than we once were. Having said that, we do communicate quite a bit especially during XDC. Afterwards, the meat of those announcements go into blog posts and discussion on the forum. I think we are far more accessible than most companies. At least, that’s what I often hear from new users and long timers as well.
As much as it sounds like a good idea to provide a way to get feedback in time for changes to be made, that’s often not practical. First of all, there will often been many different conflicting opinions and too many chefs spoil the stew as they say. We need to hear from you (ideally via Feedback) what problems you are facing that you can’t solve with Xojo as it is today. We then take all of this and since we can’t implement it all (no company can) we look for the sweet spots. We look for the things that will have the most impact that are practical for us to deliver. It’s an enormous balancing act that you can’t truly understand without working here. Almost all of our engineers came from the user community and all have said the same thing: it looks a lot easier from the outside.
What you can count on is that we will always try our best. I think we get it right more often than not but when we don’t, let us know. If we feel like that’s the consensus opinion, we will see what we can do about it. Even when we do decide to change things, it takes time. Something that @Norman Palardy has pointed out frequently is that we must look at the entire user base and how they use Xojo. Sometimes we can’t make changes without breaking code for example.
The best way to provide us feedback is through bug reports and feature requests in the Feedback app and when that does not feel like the right medium, contact us directly. And remember that the forum while very useful, represents only a portion of our user community. We have to look out for what is best for the community as a whole. That’s one reason for example that we have essentially gotten rid of the old mailing lists. What is good for the online portion of the community is for it to all be together in one place. That overrides the desire to experience it one way or the other. Even in that case, we have gone to great lengths to try and make it easier for those who like email to be able to follow threads and respond to them.
I agree with you that no one here wants to see Xojo damaged. I don’t think it’s ever intentional. Sometimes though people say things in ways that they don’t realize will be misinterpreted and that can damage Xojo. That’s why it’s important to think carefully not only to avoid creating unnecessary friction but to make sure that we aren’t creating collateral damage. The internet is forever as they say and others may come along and read something without the benefit of all of the missing context.
Regarding secrecy, I would amend your statement to say that it can breed misunderstanding and resentment. There are plenty of companies that are essentially opaque compared to us and I don’t have negative feelings about them. I think the difference is that I don’t have the kind of relationship with those companies we have with our users and our users have with us. We are a close knit community and it’s one of the things I love about my work. However, the closer people are to each other the easier it is for them to hurt each other. The upside is that it’s also easier to make each other happy as well. Those are the pluses and minuses of the kind of closeness that we have in the Xojo community.
At the conference in Berlin, @Frederick Roller, myself and others had a great time outside the conference. We explored the city together, talked about Xojo, our families, our lives. We got to know each other better. It was great. It only makes me look forward to seeing Fred again at XDC in Denver. Phillip, I know you’re coming as well and I’m looking forward to the conversations that I’m certain we will have. Those of you that are coming for the first time to Denver this April, I look forward to meeting you. Those of you still on the fence about it, I strongly encourage you to come. If you think the forum is close knit, you haven’t experienced anything like XDC. On the forum we are acquaintances. At XDC we become friends.
The conversations we have on the forum can be constructive. We are having one now. We all just need to be courteous to each other. It is far too easy to say things in text that one would never say in person. We try hard not to allow the forum to work that way. That’s one reason we demand real names.It’s why we moderate the forum. A lack of courtesy puts others on the defensive. I know that’s the effect it has on me and when I’m on the defensive I’m no longer listening. I don’t like that. I want to be listening but that’s a two way street.
So let’s all try to be better Xojo community citizens and move forward together.
I accept and agree with essentially everything you are saying and recognize the sincerity in which you say it.
I think there is always room for improvement and in private discussion I am happy to share my thoughts should they be desired.
My final feedback regarding this topic for now is the following: Every company on the planet says they listen. However you aren’t selling TVs; You are selling a way of thinking about problems and potential solutions. Those who buy into your ideas are converted into that way of thinking. When the same or similar feedback is often repeated to no avail it not only signals you are not listening but that the user is not trusted to contribute to the process.
I only speak for myself and those who have shared with me that they feel the same: The effort placed into the new framework is not in vain and excites us. Having two concurrent frameworks does not. So the theme of my post which has not been addressed is: do you still believe in one standard library across all targets or does the iOS-ification of targets spell doom to the RAD cross platform dream.
Lastly you don’t visit the forums enough and should contribute more IMO. The engineers are fantastic and despite the headaches I can give Norman I respect him immensely. You bring a different perspective however that we need to hear more.
Geoff, I am a full-time developer, but my Apps are a working tool for my clients, but anyway, I consider myself as @Karen Atkocius , I’m glad you think of us, because for many of us, XOJO is the main tool for job.
Glad to hear we’ve found some common ground.
I get that. When the feedback is presented with civility, we will always be ready to listen. We may not always agree, but we will always listen. You can count on that.[quote=359188:@Phillip Zedalis]I only speak for myself and those who have shared with me that they feel the same: The effort placed into the new framework is not in vain and excites us. Having two concurrent frameworks does not. So the theme of my post which has not been addressed is: do you still believe in one standard library across all targets or does the iOS-ification of targets spell doom to the RAD cross platform dream.[/quote]
We don’t want that either. We want the framework to be such that you can continue supporting your existing code while transitioning to the new APIs as it makes sense. That’s why the classic framework APIs will continue for the foreseeable future.[quote=359188:@Phillip Zedalis]Lastly you don’t visit the forums enough and should contribute more IMO. The engineers are fantastic and despite the headaches I can give Norman I respect him immensely. You bring a different perspective however that we need to hear more.[/quote]
You’re right, I don’t and I should. I’ll try to show up more often.
We see the citizen developer as someone who is not well-served by most other tools that are almost exclusively focused on full-time developers often in the enterprise space. We believe that the citizen developer market is one we can focus on, serve well and own. That should not be misconstrued as us not caring about the hobbyists and full-time developers. We do. Many start as a hobbyist, bring their skills to work (where they become a citizen developer) and sometimes later move on to be full-time developers. We strive to provide a tool that allows users to start off at any level and never run out of runway. We want you to be able to go as far with Xojo as your imagination will take you. The citizen developer is one that we feel almost uniquely suited to serve so we focus a lot of energy on them.
@Geoff Perlman: Censorship always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What in the topic thread did you fear so much that you had to delete it?
I’m always horrified how much like an enterprise company the tiny Xojo acts. The jargon sounds exactly like the company I work for - just that my company has a lot more employees (>100k???).
And no, Feedback is not for communicating. It’s for bugs and feature requests. By the time we would have to do a Feedback issue for the new framework mess it’s far too late.
[quote=359199:@Beatrix Willius]@Geoff Perlman: Censorship always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What in the topic thread did you fear so much that you had to delete it?
I’m always horrified how much like an enterprise company the tiny Xojo acts. The jargon sounds exactly like the company I work for - just that my company has a lot more employees (>100k???).
And no, Feedback is not for communicating. It’s for bugs and feature requests. By the time we would have to do a Feedback issue for the new framework mess it’s far too late.[/quote]
Very well said.
Right and I understand the high level mission statement of the new framework.
Maybe Xojo should not market it as the new framework until it is actually the new framework and simply call it the iOS framework which will one day have full code coverage across Desktop, Web, and Mobile. Anyway it is all optics and you are obviously aware of the concerns of myself and others. I am content to use the new framework as appropriate I am just hoping for more.