Does that “help” includes fixes for a xojo release with Web1 ?
This version of Xojo crashes for me on a M2 Pro with Ventura. I don’t expect it to get any better, so keep an Intel Mac around running a version of macOS or VM with Catalina.
I’m in the process of moving my apps to a different server, but down the line I will also be porting them to a different language. I am hoping that the current language I’m learning will be enough as there is a project to make it work on server. if not then, I’ll fall back to something that we know is tried and tested for server side apps.
There is no assurance that this wouldn’t happen with a different tool. The trouble is that the abrupt change, complete stop on any bug fixes and generally how the transition was handled has severally decimated any faith in the company’s ability to support their customers over the long term.
What other tools can give you is the support that comes from a wider adopted tool, i.e. far more people relying on the tool / framework, which means more documentation, examples and a higher chance of issues that affect you getting resolved. Not to mention that others tools can offer features that you’ve been asking for (some for a long time). A larger company is less likely to just drop support overnight for their older product when the new shiny is introduced.
Apple gets a lot of stuff wrong nowadays, but they still support their older language and frameworks, when the replacement was announced 10 years ago.
Running in a virtual machine is a clever way to keep the IDE running. It will certainly work, but it’s hardly an answer if you’re trying to to run an enterprise.
Transitioning from Web1 to Web2 was not just challenging but also a costly endeavor for us. We’re still managing significant client projects on the Web1 platform, so it’s not merely a matter of straightforward migration. The process is underway but requires a substantial investment of time—easily hundreds of hours—to complete the conversion.
Given the major changes introduced by Xojo in early 2020, it would be highly beneficial for them to extend support for the 2019 versions for a longer than usual period. While a the usual support window is generally acceptable, the unique circumstances surrounding this particular update make a longer support timeframe not just desirable, but justifiable.
If he understands it, Geoff usually does the right thing. I’m pretty hopefully he’ll keep the window open on this one longer than other versions.
Usually in an enterprise environment stability is chosen over new and shiny (such as OS, browsers) so chances are using Web1 in that type of environment will get more mileage.
@Geoff_Perlman Do you think you could help with that? Making 2019R2 Ventura-Ready?
Please contact support and we will help you figure out why it’s crashing for you given that it works for others.
No company is perfect. All are made up of people making the best decisions they can. Sometimes those decisions are less than ideal in retrospect. Given our track record, I think a more rational view would be what we have said before: the web 1 to web 2 transition wasn’t handled the way it should have been and we wouldn’t let something like that happen again.
We have been in this business for 25 years. Few other development tools have a history that long and in the overwhelming number of cases, our users have had to do little to move through major technological transitions. Our record isn’t perfect but I believe overall we have done a very good job supporting our users.
I’ve read the thread and I agree that this is the one element that would make me hesitate about not moving forward. Other things can be worked around, but it the browser standards shift in an unexpected manner, you could be left in the lurch.
I would recommend being hesitant to indicate that the fault is with myself or this brand new M2 Pro running a clean Ventura. When I next work on the Web Project, I will send in the crash reports. The language reference also doesn’t work, you can search but clicking links in the pages does nothing.
But it was repeated, twice more.
The main reason why so many high profile customers walked, wasn’t just because of the terrible idea or the poorly handled transition, it was because these customers were made incredibly angry by Xojo’s lack of understanding or solutions to the problems that Xojo created.
Most of us know that, but that doesn’t provide any indication as to the future. As someone who’s used your product since 1998, I’ve never felt as concerned for Xojo’s future as I do right now.
Xojo allowed a significant number of not just customers, but evangelists and supporters to walk. IMHO Not respecting those that made you, is the most serious of all the mistakes Xojo made in the last 5 or so years, and sad to say might just be the key to Xojo’s undoing.
after 8 days since the creation of this thread, there is still no clear answer, nor a clear assurance that Web1 will not crash, no matter what happens.
this is a ticking time bomb.
I am afraid it is. As far as I can see, you have a choice of re-writing it in Xojo’s Web 2.0 or using an alternative tool. I can’t tell you which solution is best for your needs, you’ll have to do your own research.
It’s a potential business killing situation.
You need to move to Web 2 or another language.
Personally, I would be looking at a language which is more mature and better supported as you have less chance of getting screwed over in the future. Chances are, these other languages will run your app faster and scale better.
We have a similar situation but it’s with the Windows Desktop framework rather than Web 1. I’ve been told on several occasions that Xojo want to help me but it always comes to nothing.
I have the impression of reading here the same criticisms that are made of Apple. Loyal customers from the beginning, who stayed even when Apple was going badly, are criticizing Apple’s policy over the last few years. But if it seems to me that Apple doesn’t give a damn about its forme customers, I don’t think that’s the case with Xojo. The Xojo team listens, stays available and responds.
Tbh, we use 2019R2 with Ventura for year now or so with no major problems. But the fear is always, that this will change with next MacOS Version. It’s on my list to test it with Sonoma the next days.
@Thomas_ROBISSON has Xojo Inc. ever officially guaranteed (in 2020) a 10-year support for Api1 and Web1?
or, today, does Xojo Inc. officially guarantee at least 5 years support for Api1 and Web1?
I don’t know if you realize the effort required to rewrite a commercial application from Web1 to Web2.
if you are nevertheless doing it (with Xojo or another dev tool), how can you be comfortable with the fear that tomorrow your Web1 application in production may break?
Apple launched Swift (API 2.0) almost 10 years ago. They have continued to support, fix bugs and improve Objective-C (API 1.0) in the meantime.
Giacomo, I’m just a hobbyist who develop for Mac and Windows. I know the time I spent to update my 12 projects from API1 to API2 and I can imagine, reading the forum, than update WEB1 → 2 is hardest. And I understand stress causing by the risk of loosing years of work if Xojo would stop. I crossed 3 hards years in my real job and the smalls donations I received for my Xojo applications helped me. Some months it was my unique income. That’s why I didn’t hesitate to update from API1 to 2.
I’m sad guys like Sam, Bob, and others (Loyal customers from the beginning) leave Xojo. I’m not a good developper, but I guess reading forum which guys are the pillars. I’m just trying to calm things down. And last thing, I’m not sure it’s the only Xojo’s fault. I guess the external evolutions (Apple, web rules) are hard to follow.
I wish Xojo continue a very long time.
Let’s be fair. Xojo Inc ist not Apple. Big companies screw their users also all the time (see VisualStudio for Mac @Microsoft).
The main issues were:
- they promised to make Web 1 migratable to Web 2
- Web 2 was far from beeing mature (it now becomes more and more)
- they promised to still “support” Web 1 but they didn’t made it clear enough what that meant (it means they help, but they don’t update anything anymore)
- they dint’t took complains serious enough (now they do seemingly) which has hurt the community heavily.
To all of you running a Web 1 application:
- get rid of it as soon as you can. Use Web2 or what ever else fits to you.
- If you can’t afford this, pray for that your application will continue to work in future browsers but be prepared that it will stop working in a future.
- When the 2019 IDE doesn’t work anymore in future OS, hope that Xojo finds ways or is willing to fix this (I hope this too)
- meanwhile, and I can’t stress this enough, rewrite your fking application
@Thomas_ROBISSON I hope your work problems are overcome or at least reduced.
I’m really glad that the income from the applications you have developed has helped you.
I don’t know (as a developer) the rules regarding donations, but I think you can understand that for an application in use by companies (just for example: accounting, human resources, professionals, etc.) the developer has appropriate contractual responsibilities.
also for the time it takes to fix bugs or even worse to restore the broken system.
@Lars_Lehmann I’m already rewriting my fking applications.
I don’t add any more to your post, which is alarming enough.