Well I won’t say too much more because it’s futile, but thanks again to everyone for sharing what you think of things. It certainly was entertaining. I’ll finish up by saying a few things and then I’ll leave it at that.
[quote=65051:@Kem Tekinay]I already stated my three main objections, but let me list them again here:
- They reduce readability.
- They make it harder to debug. (See point 1.)
- They open the door for more operators that will take the language in the wrong direction.
If you want me to explain why I find them less readable, I’m afraid you’ll have to settle for, “because I do.”
BTW, my sarcastic post was meant to illustrate through absurdity. Your analogy is faulty.[/quote]
You see, for me points 1 and 2 are the reverse. They increase readability, and they make it easier to debug. I’ve already explained why, and you haven’t. You are refusing to. Points alone without any explanation or reasoning behind them fall flat, which means that you have absolutely no argument.
My problem now is that you would feel so strongly about something that you would try to stop other people from getting this thing that they want even when you can’t properly explain why they shouldn’t have it. If you can’t explain exactly why and give good reasons as to why you would want to stop other people from having something, I think it’s quite ok for those people to demand for some reasoning.
As for “because I do.” - there are quite a few problems with this. See what I’ve written below in response to Eli. Coming from an intelligent man like yourself I’m honestly a little surprised by this type of response.
@Dave S people have given reasons but not gone into detail about why. They simply say it reduces readability. Or that they don’t like it. Or that it’s not historical. I counter that argument with why I think it increases readability, and they simply restate that it doesn’t without ever saying why.
@Eli Ott I don’t want to change languages. I like using Xojo. I think some people take far too quickly to the “Don’t like it, get up and leave. Find another language.” type of stance… and that isn’t healthy for Xojo. Too much of that and it’ll end up like some of the Linux community if it’s not careful: a small community of very insular people with a strong ideology defending it against all outside experience and influence. It’s a stance of: “We’re right, you’re wrong. I don’t have to explain anything to you. If you don’t like it, tough.” This is an attitude without compromise or consideration and it turns people away. All the while these people will be slapping each other on the back saying “Good job! We showed that guy!” and then wonder and complain about why there’s no one else around.
If Xojo is to grow and attract all sorts of people, then it needs to be open to a little bit of criticism. Its users need to be open to people with ideas different to their own. If it decides to not to include features that many people think are important, then it needs to properly explain why and provide solid reasons for it. Thus far the reasons haven’t really been solid, in my opinion. Especially the beginners reason which seems to be the official line from Mr. Perlman. That just doesn’t float at all. I already said why in the first post. If I saw a good reason that I could agree with, I’d probably just accept the decision. But accepting something without an explanation just because you tell me to? You’ll have more luck squeezing blood from a stone.
Here’s just another short little example I’m going to throw in here:
it is, we are, they are, etc
it's, we're, they're, etc
You only have to learn what it's means once. Forever more, it’s easier to say. Are you going to cut that out of the English language to help beginners? I surely hope not. I’d be as tired of saying “we are” as I am of writing “i = i + 1” and there’s no loss of clarity.
And another example. With the += operator you only have to consider two things: the values on either side of the operator. I know immediately that whatever is on the right is added to the left. One thought, if you will. With the long form, I have to first calculate the right and then add it to the left. Much more error prone because it’s an operation involving two operators instead of just one. I also have to determine if it is even an increment or some other kind of operation.
