No 2020 release yet almost 7 months in

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  2. last week

    Norman P

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro outside admiring the sunshine,...

    @Kevin G re> The framework I meant split it up into as many plugins as possible. I assume the framework is a mix of C & Xojo so the C parts would become C plugins and the Xojo parts would use the new Xojo based plugin format that is on the roadmap somewhere.

    What makes you think this isnt already this way ?

    @Kevin G re> The IDE. I meant make certain parts of the IDE plugins themselves based on the Xojo code format plugins.

    first we have to get xojo format plugins dont we ? :)
    chicken meet egg

    @Kevin G The idea is to try and make more of the IDE interchangeable so that it would be easier to deploy out of band fixes. For example, if there was a bug in the SQLite plugin or the FolderItem plugin make it possible to just release fixes to those plugins before the next major release.

    They'd have to change where the IDE looks for some parts since they could not put them into the application bundle without breaking signatures - but thats not rocket science

  3. Rick A

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro (Brazil. UTC-3:00)

    @Kevin G I'm not sure it would be any noticeably slower than today

    From a human stand point of view, for some forms of commercial applications, I believe you are right, YOU don't notice.
    But you are introducing a lot unnecessary I/O loading and unnecessary structures inflating the stored and in memory code.

    Besides that, you are exchanging the:

    DoThis() // already here in a form of machine code doing system calls

    With

    LoadDoThis() // from disk
    CallDoThis() -> DoThis() // in a form of a call to the loaded machine code elsewhere that does system calls

  4. Kevin G

    Jun 30 Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Norman P What makes you think this isnt already this way ?

    first we have to get xojo format plugins dont we ? :)
    chicken meet egg

    They'd have to change where the IDE looks for some parts since they could not put them into the application bundle without breaking signatures - but thats not rocket science

    Well, there does appear to be some plugins but the majority of the framework seems to be one big lump. Ideally what you would want is a Xojo IDE plugins folder which is full of IDE stuff and the user plugins folder that you have today.

  5. Rick A

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro (Brazil. UTC-3:00)

    Excessive use of plugins is not a good design. https://www.mbs-plugins.de/archive/2017-10-24/Windows_DLL_Limits_and_Xojo_64/monkeybreadsoftware_blog_xojo

  6. Eric W

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro

    It's probably taking longer for this particular release because there's a new API (read framework changes) involved. That is bound to create a lot of dependencies no matter how things are structured. If that is so there could be a big release with almost monthly bug fixes thereafter.

  7. Kevin G

    Jun 30 Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Rick A From a human stand point of view, for some forms of commercial applications, I believe you are right, YOU don't notice.
    But you are introducing a lot unnecessary I/O loading and unnecessary structures inflating the stored and in memory code.

    Besides that, you are exchanging the:

    DoThis() // already here in a form of machine code doing system calls

    With

    LoadDoThis() // from disk
    CallDoThis() -> DoThis() // in a form of a call to the loaded machine code elsewhere that does system calls

    Well the OS would be responsible for loading the shared libraries like it does for all other apps. It already loads at least one shared library so loading a few others probably wouldn't make a difference.

    A quick test on my 2012 MacBook Pro with our app compared with some other apps on my Mac indicates that there is not much time difference before the first window appears so it doesn't seem to be a problem. Our users (in there thousands) have reported many things but not how quickly it takes for the app to launch.

  8. Kevin G

    Jun 30 Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England
    Edited last week

    @Rick A https://www.mbs-plugins.de/archive/2017-10-24/Windows_DLL_Limits_and_Xojo_64/monkeybreadsoftware_blog_xojo

    That might be an implementation issue with Christian's plugins (which he fixed anyway). I don't think we would be talking about hundreds of extra DLLs.

  9. Rick A

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro (Brazil. UTC-3:00)

    I already explained, so I will just repeat the part "excessive, unnecessary use of plugins" is bad design.

  10. Kevin G

    Jun 30 Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Rick A I already explained, so I will just repeat the part "excessive, unnecessary use of plugins" is bad design.

    Is it unnecessary use?

    What would your alternative be?

  11. Rick A

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro (Brazil. UTC-3:00)
    Edited last week

    @Kevin G What would your alternative be?

    Generating simple code inline as usual and linking its libs? The compiler/linker even strips away unnecessary things, optimize others. Dynamic code does not have such benefits.

  12. Rick A

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro (Brazil. UTC-3:00)

    We don't need a plugin to use DateTime, another for FolderItem, another for Timers, and so on. This is just crazy.

  13. Kevin G

    Jun 30 Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Rick A Generating simple code inline as usual and linking its libs? The compiler/linker even strips away unnecessary things, optimize others. Dynamic code does not have such benefits.

    Inlining would be useful even for our own code but I’m not sure if inlining the framework would be a good idea.

    Static linking would be nice but it has its own set of problems and I’m pretty sure Xojo said no way when I asked about it a while back.

  14. Norman P

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro outside admiring the sunshine,...

    @Kevin G Well, there does appear to be some plugins but the majority of the framework seems to be one big lump. Ideally what you would want is a Xojo IDE plugins folder which is full of IDE stuff and the user plugins folder that you have today.

    Xojo plugins doesnt necessarily mean they will be "dylibs" though
    You'd need that to make it so they are modular dynamically loadable etc

  15. Geoff P

    Jun 30 Xojo Inc Austin, Texas

    @Mark C I have 5 months left on my 'subscription' and following purchase (at 19r1) there have been no beneficial releases of the product that could warrant that purchase.

    Some of you have expressed concerns that we have yet to release a new version of Xojo this year. First, we hear you and it's always our goal to have regular releases throughout the year. This year has been unusual in so many ways. We have several large features under development and that they are all coming in so close together is atypical to be sure. R1 with Web Framework 2.0 is huge of course and is now nearly feature complete but it has taken longer than we originally anticipated to reach this point. R1 is now in public testing of course so if you have an active license, I encourage you to test it out and provide feedback. On the flip side, most of the features for R2 are also already feature complete which in and of itself is highly unusual. As a result, R2 will very likely begin public testing very soon after R1 ships. With the value of hindsight, we would have flipped these two releases which would have resulted in R1 shipping several months ago and R2 likely shipping around the same time R1 will now ship anyway.

    There has also been some concern as to the effect that Apple's transition to Apple Silicon might have on our Android work. Rest assured that work on the transition to Apple Silicon has already begun, is proceeding at a better than expected rate and is being handled by engineers that are not directly involved in support for Android work. Thus Apple Silicon support should have no appreciable impact on support for Android or our roadmap in general.

    As we have done in the past, when we have something cool that shows off our progress, we will share it with you. We are as excited as ever about the opportunities that the seemingly ever changing landscape of OS platforms provides for all of us. I speak for the entire Xojo team when I tell you that we appreciate your continued enthusiasm and support.

  16. Michel B

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro
    Edited last week

    Thank you Geoff.

    If I may, since I started back in late 2000 with RB under PowerPC, I can attest the change to Intel back in 2006 was accompanied by a smooth transition on the RB part.

    I am confident Xojo will make the change to Apple Silicon just as easy.

  17. Christian S

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro, XDC Speakers, Third Party Store Germany

    The ARM transition? For Xojo it will be some work, for the users just another entry in the popupmenu.
    And it may be good if run button just builds always Intel version on an Intel Mac.

  18. Mark C

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro Spain 03170

    yes, thanks Geoff for quoting me, I will take that as a reason to answer personally to you.

    it appears to me that listening has absolutely nothing to do with hearing.

    20R1 is in testing? did i miss something? I thought that was not public information and only supposed to be available to 'Testers'.

    This cycle is indeed unusual.
    it was unusual by some large extent before MaciOS came along to mess the party up.

    blah blah about the releases, honestly Geoff, you are in command, get some engineers into the project, there are loads of competent ones in this forum who would like to help, and most likely would do for a free licence now and again.
    Please, for once, just stick a pin in the road map, show everyone you are confident about the state of the release.
    if its not going to happen this year then say so, people will respect honesty above blah blah blah.

    'cool' is just not a cool word anymore, and has not been for a couple of decades, lets grow up and use 'reliable', 'stable' and 'viable for the future' as key phrases.

    Thanks for speaking for the whole team, it might be nice to hear them speaking for themselves too now and again.
    My personal enthusiasm is for the product, its potential, where it might be able to go and kick the backside of some more established IDE, I love to use Xojo, I do not like the name, but who would care about that, I have not had much trust in the path the product is taking now.

    I am desperate to join in the evangelism Geoff, but the preacher has a bad cold and the words to me seem muffled and just out of reach, thank goodness this little lamb is not important to the flock and I can be let loose like everyone else on the peripherals, baaaaaaaaaaa.

    that is my opinion, and in no way suggests that anyone else would think the same way nor has ever suggested to me that they might be of a similar opinion.
    also, I have no intention to abuse, denigrate nor personally target a person nor to demean.
    I am offering a very forthright opinion to someone who has engaged me directly by quoting my text.
    were I not so inclined to be emotionally invested in the Xojo product I would not be writing this message.
    I hope my, and other users concerns, are considered.

    please ask people why they do not renew their licences.

    Regards to you Geoff and all the staff.

  19. Tim J

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro N. Phoenix, AZ

    @Mark C please ask people why they do not renew their licences.

    Slightly sarcastic here, but you don't buy this year's car on the promises the dealer makes for next year's model. Unfortunately, I did just that based on Geoff's keynote from Virtual XDC. I'll never learn.

    @Mark C 'cool' is just not a cool word anymore, and has not been for a couple of decades, lets grow up and use 'reliable', 'stable' and 'viable for the future' as key phrases.

    And THAT is an example - I can't speak for others, but I don't need Cool features - especially cool web features. I need functionality and stability. That starts with the IDE. If I can't get that in the IDE, why would I assume that I can get that in my apps BUILT with the IDE? To recognize Norman's comment about Xojo "Eating their own dog food" above :

    @Norman P Dogfooding the IDE by writing it using Xojo has meant many more bugs are found early by engineers

    All you need to do is to use the IDE on Linux or newer released versions of macOS for any length of time and you'll start worrying as well.

    When you add to that feedback reports about these issues that date back to 2017 that still exist in 2019r3.1, it's one more nail in the coffin ...

  20. Alex B

    Jun 30 Testers, Xojo Pro Vancouver - Canada

    @Tim J Slightly sarcastic here, but you don't buy this year's car on the promises the dealer makes for next year's model. Unfortunately, I did just that based on Geoff's keynote from Virtual XDC. I'll never learn.

    And THAT is an example - I can't speak for others, but I don't need Cool features - especially cool web features. I need functionality and stability. That starts with the IDE. If I can't get that in the IDE, why would I assume that I can get that in my apps BUILT with the IDE? To recognize Norman's comment about Xojo "Eating their own dog food" above :

    All you need to do is to use the IDE on Linux or newer released versions of macOS for any length of time and you'll start worrying as well.

    When you add to that feedback reports about these issues that date back to 2017 that still exist in 2019r3.1, it's one more nail in the coffin ...

    If we are in a situation where we can't have a release for bugs that have been fixed like the very laggy navigator scrolling because of a new web framework then what does it say about the platform? I'm sure we would all love a popupmenu that lets us select between Web 1.0 and Web 2.0 in any new version of the IDE but they are just too integrated to be split apart like that. That's where an IDE that is separate from the underlying framework is useful, fixes for the IDE can be released without affecting the framework and vice-versa.

    If 2020r2 is basically ready and 2020r1 is still working its way to feature completion then why not postpone r1 and move it to r2? Web 2.0 is not going to make or break anyone's business if it gets delayed but critical bugs will. My fear is that with the pressure that has been applied from people wanting a release soon is that Web 2.0 is going to pushed out before its ready and we will end up waiting for r2 anyways.

  21. Ivan T

    Jun 30 Testers

    @Tim J Slightly sarcastic here, but you don't buy this year's car on the promises the dealer makes for next year's model.

    Well, of cours you are going to do if the dealer said to yo that you are going to get a couple aditional cars with that single purchase. (until you learn that some of the cool feature the dealer promissed you arrive 5 years later and now you dont spend money every year)

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