Stupid Question of the Day: Love for THEN?

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  2. 2 weeks ago

    Norman P

    Nov 29 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro under a bus

    that was one of my very first jobs when I got hired
    deciphering a financial model that was written in APL and the person had quit :P

  3. Dave S

    Nov 29 San Diego, California USA

    "Hey Sisemore, Joe wrote this huge APL program, but he just quit, we need you to translate it for us".
    "Hey Boss, here is MY two week notice!" :D

  4. @Norman P not me
    xojo does that for me because the lexical scoping rules are nice and clear :)

    It's only nice and clear to Xojo because you've spelt it out using keywords such as Then or End If, that's a lot of extra typing compared to hitting the tab or backspace key on a new line.

  5. last week

    Tim S

    Nov 30 Pre-Release Testers Canterbury, UK

    @Steve W It's only nice and clear to Xojo because you've spelt it out using keywords such as Then or End If, that's a lot of extra typing compared to hitting the tab or backspace key on a new line.

    Ah, you must be a Perl programmer.

    Perl, APL, TECO. All write-only languages.

    One Jeff Polk is alleged to have said: "There's no obfuscated Perl contest because it's pointless."

  6. @Tim S Ah, you must be a Perl programmer.

    Strange conclusion when we're discussing Python's syntax
    ¯\(°_o)/¯

  7. Norman P

    Nov 30 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro under a bus

    @Steve W It's only nice and clear to Xojo because you've spelt it out using keywords such as Then or End If, that's a lot of extra typing compared to hitting the tab or backspace key on a new line.

    Clarity is not a function of "how fast can I type this in ?"
    I usually expect that I can read it in 6 days, 6 months or 6 years (or maybe more*) later and still grok the purpose and mechanism employed to achieve that purpose
    Typing speed doesnt factor into that as far as I'm concerned - not ever

    *I wrote a regular expression enginer for an accounting system in 1992 in a language that looked more like Cobol than anything
    A decade later I returned to that company on contract and they asked me to make sone tweaks to that code
    That is when you truly appreciate your younger self having gotten some good advice from others about writing clear concise code

  8. Norman P

    Nov 30 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro under a bus

    perl - the only language that looks like someone puked up punctuation all over your screen :)

    although APL is pretty damned hard to read as well and you better like matrices

  9. Michel B

    Nov 30 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    @Norman P A decade later I returned to that company on contract and they asked me to make sone tweaks to that code
    That is when you truly appreciate your younger self having gotten some good advice from others about writing clear concise code

    +1

    Several of the apps I placed in the MAS were written at the turn of the Millenium. When I started with the MAS, back in 2013, that code was a good decade old. That is indeed when I appreciated having good habits. It took very little work to prep them up.

    I should say that RB/Xojo stability helped quite a bit. Apart from the disappearance of Pict, I had very little refactoring to do. Could be a bit different now with API 2. Although so far using 2019R2 for compile only works fine.

  10. @Norman P Clarity is not a function of "how fast can I type this in ?"
    I usually expect that I can read it in 6 days, 6 months or 6 years (or maybe more*) later and still grok the purpose and mechanism employed to achieve that purpose

    And imo that's another big bonus of Python's syntax, the fact indentation is significant (which forces developers to use it properly) combined with Python's docstrings proves very helpful in that regard.

  11. Greg O

    Dec 1 Xojo Inc scout.galaxy.barn

    @Steve W And imo that's another big bonus of Python's syntax, the fact indentation is significant (which forces developers to use it properly) combined with Python's docstrings proves very helpful in that regard.

    The major issue I have with that is 1 Tab = 1 Space. If you’ve got one dev on your team that likes tabs and another that likes spaces, indentation becomes “subjective”.

  12. Tiago R

    Dec 1 Pre-Release Testers Planet Earth
    Edited last week

    @Greg OLone The major issue I have with that is 1 Tab = 1 Space. If you’ve got one dev on your team that likes tabs and another that likes spaces, indentation becomes “subjective”.

    No need to worry about that if your team uses black.*

    * That said, using spaces will pay you more ;)

  13. Tiago R

    Dec 1 Pre-Release Testers Planet Earth

    BTW external tool integrations like that are something I’d love to see available more extensively for Xojo. I guess that should be already possible for text based projects.

  14. Norman P

    Dec 1 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro under a bus

    @Tiago R BTW external tool integrations like that are something I’d love to see available more extensively for Xojo. I guess that should be already possible for text based projects.

    Not really since the IDE doesnt watch for external tools editing project files and reload them when they are edited
    Not that it couldnt - it just doesnt

  15. Tim J

    Dec 1 Pre-Release Testers N. Phoenix, AZ

    @Greg OLone The major issue I have with that is 1 Tab = 1 Space. If you’ve got one dev on your team that likes tabs and another that likes spaces, indentation becomes “subjective”.

    "REAL" programmers understand this:

    set et ts=4 autoindent nowrap

    Or

    /*
    ** for emacs
    ** Local Variables:
    ** c-basic-offset: 4
    ** End:
    */

    :P

  16. Tim S

    Dec 1 Pre-Release Testers Canterbury, UK

    @Tim J "REAL" programmers understand this:

    • * for emacs
    • * Local Variables:

    Ah yes, emacs, I was forgetting that one - I class it with APL etc (see above).

    Only run that twice in my life, each time by accident and each time I spent 20 minutes with Google trying to find out how to quit it.

    I remember in about 1990 when I was at SLAC, we were moving from VM/CMS to unix and there was a discussion as to which editor might be recommended - vi, jove, and one or two others whose names I have now forgotten. While this was raging on, I needed to get going and started using dxnotepad on this Ultrix box I was given. Some six months later I tuned into the debate again, wondering which of those editors I should learn.

    Then I realised that the answer was: NONE. It had taken me 5 minutes to find out how to use dxnotepad, and if any simple tool like a text editor takes longer then it's the wrong tool. Soon after that I moved to BBEdit and haven't looked back.

    Mind you, I still have to hand my "Ultrix: vi - Beginner's Reference" for those once-in-a-decade moments where a Terminal is all I have available.

  17. Well, I'm in the minority, here, it appears but I adore Python. It just suits me in a way that other languages haven't. And a lot of it is what Norm mentioned, it's so easy to see what's going-on with it that maintenance even 5 years later is easy (er). I like the indentation thing—less symbols to track: you just look at space and when the space vs tab thing crops up show invisibles is your friend. . . . %^)

    That said, I like Xojo, too. Doing a sophisticated user interface in pure Python/TK is a nightmare I've avoided. And since the largest, most complex app I've ever done is literally 50% Xojo frontend and 50% Python backend I stand by my opinions. (And both these languages allow me to distance myself as far as possible from the Sinclair Basic and Z-80 assembly language that I started with. LD HL DE—Oy!)

    Dave

  18. Tim J

    Dec 2 Pre-Release Testers N. Phoenix, AZ

    @David F Well, I'm in the minority, here, it appears but I adore Python.

    At least you're not alone. We use Python for anything that doesn't require C or ASM-level fine tuning for performance - including a lot of my Xojo UI helper tools.

    @David F Sinclair Basic and Z-80 assembly language that I started with. LD HL DE

    You should have battled through TI 9900 ASM. At least the Zilog chips had fixed registers :D.

  19. Tim J

    Dec 2 Pre-Release Testers N. Phoenix, AZ

    Also, there was a Feature Request for making Then implicit that got clobbered as "Won't Implement":

    Feedback Case #17268

  20. Norman P

    Dec 2 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro under a bus

    Consider who closed it as as good reason not to do it :P

  21. Tim J

    Dec 2 Pre-Release Testers N. Phoenix, AZ

    :D

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