"You never bought Xojo"


Obviously I “never bought Xojo”.

It’s not as if I’m talking about an old elapsed licence.

Like using Photoshop 5 to get an upgrade to the latest Creative Suite.

I’m talking about having bought a licence including all updates for the next four years.

I’m talking about having a currently active licence.

A licence which is treated differently from other licences.

It would be ok if Xojo had stated at the point of sale that “this licence cannot be used like other licences”.

But they didn’t.

It was a bog standard licence.

So let’s be frank here: it is a case of “seller’s remorse”.

They made special offers. I took up the offer. Now they regret that they sold the licence cheaply, and want to get some of the money “back” that I so obviously “owe” them.

A bit reminiscent of the companies that “pay too little tax” because they follow the law.

Of cause those companies could simply pay more tax than the law decrees them to.

I could of cause simply have paid more than Xojo asked for.

But then I would be stupid.

No, instead Xojo decrees that my licence is different.

Why? And this is the goody: Because I “never bought Xojo”

So let’s summarize that:

I take up a special offer and buy a multi-year licence of REALstudio
They rename it to Xojo
They treat my licence differently because “you never bought Xojo”

For me that behaviour is highly unethical.

Theoretical question: what if they rename it tomorrow to Suckeroo and declare that as a new product for which you need a new licence? Never mind that your license is running for another 2 years?

Most interesting though is the reaction of the community to this.

I would have thought a logical response would be “an active licence is an active licence and should not be treated differently because of when or where it was bought”

There were two who reacted like that.

But for the vast majority it’s either attacks against me as if I would be asking for special treatment. Which I’m not.

Or a “finger in the ear la la la” aka “rice”.

It’s an interesting but well known psychological reaction.

Pretty much the other side of “fodder envy”.

“I paid this much so others should pay at least as much too, and if they don’t then I’m against them getting the same rights as me”


I can really feel the community spirit.

So, am I stupid for asking that my current and active licence is being treated like other current active licences?

According to you guys: yes.

Btw, if the community doesn’t want to hear this then just answer with the word “rice” and I’m happy to take it elsewhere.


Rice, more rice and yet more rice - a whole paddy field of rice!

Don’t hold back, Patrick. Let it all out. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Btw forgot to say it needs 10 rice throwers. No sacks though.

Markus, you are obviously very frustrated. But the more emotional you get, the less logical arguments get heard.

Obviously there is a lot of aggravation all around, and that will not help any possible appeasement.

Now you seem to take it on a community which, overwhelmingly, is composed of enthusiasts that go back a decade or so with Xojo. Do you really expect they will change their opinion of a company they have to thank for their business success and continued excellent customer experience ?

I did not take a special offer back in 2012 when I bought a two years license. And when Xojo came out in 2013 effectively I was able to use Xojo without having purchased it by name with my RS license that extended until July 2014. I see nothing shocking in that. A rose, by any other name, is still a rose.

You have my sympathy and esteem as a person, and I see you are upset, but please do not drag me into your business dispute. I just happen to have enjoyed a different experience.

Thanks Michel, but I’m not emotional. I was yesterday, actually I was seething, but at the moment I’m cool as a cucumber. Actually more than cool, a bit emotionally drained.

That’s what I thought too. But not according to Xojo.

That I was told yesterday that I “never bought Xojo” had to sink in a bit first. But the case is pretty clear as outlined above, and in my view (and hopefully not just from my view point) unethical.

Doesn’t mean that any of what I said is wrong. Doesn’t mean that you should not get to hear about other experiences.

As for the community: Arguments were brought which were completely beside the point as they didn’t apply (like as if I had an expired licence, or was talking about renewals, or wanted something that I had no right to).

I noticed a certain siege mentality in the Xojo community whenever something is criticised. I can understand it, but it’s also the ugly side of the community spirit. I’m a great believer in bringing problems out into the open. Because you don’t keep people, companies, politicians, etc honest by letting them do whatever they want in secret :wink:

The forum Ignore Member feature is awesome.


“Ignoring” people is not really ignoring them (that implies still hearing them and being able to respond), it is shunning them.

I didn’t even do that to Brad.

After all, “I might not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend your right to say it”.

You might not want to see it, then simply don’t read it.

[quote=229614:@Markus Winter]As for the community: Arguments were brought which were completely beside the point as they didn’t apply (like as if I had an expired licence, or was talking about renewals, or wanted something that I had no right to).

I noticed a certain siege mentality in the Xojo community whenever something is criticised.[/quote]

I have ignored your other thread after the exchange in German, so I have no idea what you came up against.

The flip side of a strong sense of community is indeed often the kind of collective self that tends to take any criticism as an attack on members themselves. That is true for Xojo fans as football aficionados. In a sense, people become so attached and dependent on their favorite development tool, they react as if they themselves were in question. That is human nature.

If I dared, I would say a lot of programmers also may present rather introverted personalities which invest a lot in their code. Questioning the very root tool of their accomplishments could be somewhat emotionally painful to them.

Maybe your dismay comes in a way from your very real investment in Xojo, here and through Xdev, as well as your usage of it. Somehow maybe your emotional attachment to the product and to the company got drenched by their refusal, nonobstant its justification or lack thereof.

I don’t really understand the full ins and outs of this but xojo is just a name change, a rebranding.
Companies often do this for various reasons but always they send you a reassurance letter that this makes no difference to your rights etc.
Patrick, Markus seems to infer that your hostility towards his first post is based on the fact that you might have paid more than him.
Didn’t you also oppose the release of videos of a Real/xojo conference because you were paying a lot of money to attend?

No, my dismay stems from the fact that I indeed have a second class licence. And I’m just very much against discrimination, wether directed against me or against others. That’s also why the community reaction is so disappointing - you’d expect people to stand up and say “that’s not ok”.

Geoff thinks of himself as a moral guy as we all do, and I guess most of the time he is. But here he failed. Artifically making my licence second class is not acceptable. And if “fellow Xojoans” can’t speak up then who could/would/should?

If that experience does one thing, then that it weakens my attachment to Xojo. I wrote 30% of the last xDev. It took me a total of ten or eleven days researching the material and then writing the articles. For $150. So the question for me personally is: can I justify that level of support for the community? Do I still want to? If the community not only does not support my struggle against being discriminated against, but (see above and the other threads) rather prefers to shun me … then am I actually still a member of this community?

Wasn’t particular against Patrick, but that is an observation well established in psychological research.


My hostility is nothing more than -
“For Gods Sake - you’ve made your point - it’s boring now!”

Have I paid more/less than anyone else to Xojo?
That’s between me and Xojo - no-one else’s business, but I’m quite happy with the numbers. Last time I renewed was September 2012 - that expires next month and I’ll be renewing - so it’s not like I’m pouring money into Xojo Inc even with a Pro license!

Having studied Psychology I actually laughed at that one…

As for XDC Videos - Yes, I opposed them but my point there was simply that the option of session videos should be announced at the same time XDC registration opens - not later.

That way, people have the opportunity to work out whether the difference in cost between the videos and benefits of attending is worth it to them. Announcing videos after the registration opens takes that choice away from people.

But this is a very old topic, not really worth regurgitating!

OK. Now at the risk of looking like an idiot, that part I do not understand. I have to confess I did not quite feel courageous enough to go through you very long posts about your story.

I tend to like very synthetic descriptions (helps in programming). From what I understand from your unpublished article:

  • You have a current four years Desktop license bought back in 2012 as twice 2 years valid until 2017. In effect, you do get the same support and access to upgrades as anybody who buys a desktop license today.

I frankly don’t see where is the second class license in there. Exactly the same treatment as other licensees, me included.

Now from what I understand is that you wanted a trade your old license for new ones. Xojo offers to buy the remaining time based on the 2012 list price, and you want them to buy it back on the 2015 list price. Well. Seems to me this is perfectly alright capitalistic offer and demand. It is your privilege not to go for that offer as a customer, just as well as Xojo’s right to consider your older license in regards of the price you paid 3 years ago.

I am not saying you have to like it. Just that it is the way business works. Deal or no deal is ultimately your decision.

If I were you, I would not try to elaborate calculations based on supposed software license amortized price. I would rather ask myself if I truly need the whole Pro paraphernalia. You have a perfectly working Desktop license with Database and Console until 2017. So now is it really necessary to have everything ? Would it not be wiser to simply get Web ? That would be a lot less money.

And before accuses me of a Xojo love in…

I’ve had my issues with Xojo over the last 2 years, some fairly big ones, but I’ve tried as much as possible to keep them behind closed doors which is where they belong. Not very successfully at times but I tried - it doesn’t help that someone I employed to do some work went COMPLETELY off the rails and I have been tainted by that.

Anyhow, RANT OVER!!!

Did it ever cross your mind that the noted lack of response you’ve observed is the “silent XOJO majority’s” way of sending you a message.

I have yet to determine what this rant is all about?
The fact that renewals are not 50% anymore? yeah I find that disappointing.
The fact that there were “deals” in the past that are no longer available? Snooze you lose.
The fact that some people were able to take better advantage of those deals? fact of life.

As for myself. I managed to get my license for Standard Desktop thru 2017, and did it just before it became XOJO.
Am I happy with with I have? yes… Will I continue to renew at full price come 2017? not as likely as before I’m afraid.

Look at it this way.

We both have a valid current licence that runs for another three years.

You bought yours last year, I bought mine two years ago.

However their remaining value is very different.

How so?

The remaining value of your licence, of ANY licence in fact bought after the name change, is based on the current store price. Even if you would have bought it for $2 in the MacHeist bundle. That is the price you get counted if you want to upgrade to Pro. This is not a refund!

However the remaining value of licences bought before the name change are calculated on an artificial price that was fixed in the store for REALstudio and is MUCH lower.

So your licence is judged to have a remaining value $299 * 3 = $897

Mine is judged as being only worth 3 * $120 = $360

Not because of WHAT I paid for it as everyone seems to assume, but because of WHEN.

So my licence is very different from your licence, even if you would have bought yours for $2.

Both licenses let you run current versions and get updates until they expire. That is what counts. Services rendue. Not the trade-in price. Otherwise we can all start counting our virtual real estate that takes value only when sold.

You are visibly unhappy about the offer from Xojo. By now I guess everybody gets that. Mission accomplished. Time to move on to more endearing topics.

Upgrade pricing is indeed based on what you’ve purchased in the past. Many software companies these days will not apply any remaining value of existing purchases to upgrades at all. But we choose to allow credit for past purchases based on the value of the item you purchased before, and we believe that is fair. Some may not want to take us up on that offer, and that is fine. This has been covered in at least three different threads in just the past two days, and I don’t think it’s productive to have another one.