Xojo vs Other Tools

you are 46? just a mere child! LOL… :slight_smile: (just kidding)
I myself am about to turn 61, and I have NEVER stopped learning about new development tools, I started with MBASIC back in the 70’s, and started with RealBasic/Studio/XOJO in 2006… each tool has its strengths and weaknesses, sometimes that strength is rapid development at the cost of execution speed, and vice versa execution speed at the cost of development time (and there will be those that will argue BOTH sides of that coin, so lets not)… The point is, you have languages that are good at somethings more so that other, and you have languages that are no good for anything (but it up to YOU to decide that)

Steve, if I may, we are trying to answer questions from Ronaldo.

Your personal preferences are yours, such as not wanting a server side language (although PHP is one), but I frankly wonder what that has to do with the OP’s question.

I believe Ronaldo already discovered Xojo Web qualities through his first achievement ; it is not necessary to rain on his parade. Incidentally, this is a Xojo forum, I fail to see the interest of dishing it here.

@ronaldo florendo : Although opinions may be interesting, in the end, you are the only judge of what suits you best. Like shoes, programming languages are often a question of personal preferences. Read about them, try them out, and forge your own opinion. Don’t listen to snobs. At the end of the day, only results count.

It should be noted there is no technical limitation in Xojo preventing you from doing what Steve desires. I have Xojo apps that are web servers that expose single page apps using all client side operations (except for a few server side API calls). It’s not the default option in Xojo Web but that does not mean it’s impossible. In fact to do what I described you don’t even need Xojo Web.

The level of skill required to develop a usable Xojo Web application is far less than the skill required to build a single page app and a majority of the code as client side javascript. It’s also not an apples to apples comparison because only in Xojo can you build a web app using only one language. Even if you use Node.JS on the server and work 100% with javascript on the server and client you would still have to build the raw HTML which you do not have to do in Xojo.

Xojo Web is a bit like a super charged Rapidweaver with a programming environment but a lack of external theme packs, styles, and templates. The major upside being you can share business logic with your desktop and iOS apps as well reducing the overall code you have to write.

[quote=283929:@Michel Bujardet]Steve, if I may, we are trying to answer questions from Ronaldo. [/quote]Me too. If Ronaldo’s aware Xojo WE sends every client event to the server and the back end will not run on a standard hosting package and he’s OK with it then fine but let’s not be economical with the truth.

[quote=283929:@Michel Bujardet]Your personal preferences are yours, such as not wanting a server side language (although PHP is one) [/quote]Where did I say I don’t want a server side language? Actually what I said was PHP is precisely the server side language I do want.

[quote=283930:@Phillip Zedalis]Even if you use Node.JS on the server and work 100% with javascript on the server and client you would still have to build the raw HTML which you do not have to do in Xojo.[/quote]Qooxdoo is pure JavaScript, you don’t have to use any HTML or CSS. So with Node.JS server side and Qooxdoo client side you have JavaScript both ends.

SpiderBasic doesn’t require you to create any HTML or CSS either. SpiderBasic shares the same Syntax as PureBasic which can create and compile CGI executables that you simply drop in your website’s cgi-bin. So with PureBasic + SpiderBasic you have Basic both ends and a web app that runs on a standard web hosting package.

So again it’s not correct to say: “only in Xojo can you build a web app using only one language”.

The advantage Xojo has over Qooxdoo and SpiderBasic is the quality of the IDE. I’d like to use the Xojo IDE and syntax to create web UIs but not if the price I have to pay is every client’s events being sent to a non-standard back end.

I have seen time and again Steve insisting other products are better than Xojo. It puzzles me why he is still trolling around here. Is there no Qooxdoo, PureBasic or SpiderBasic forums ?

[quote=283943:@Steve Wilson]So again it’s not correct to say: “only in Xojo can you build a web app using only one language”.
[/quote]

Okay you took the easy bait. I of course don’t mean to imply that Xojo is the only tool to ever deliver this.

I was speaking more generally in regards to the original poster’s question which was Xojo VS more mainstream languages. Comparing Xojo to tools even less well known than Xojo and/or one trick ponies is not a fair comparison. SpiderBasic seems to be web only so how exactly do you share code with your iOS app in SpiderBasic?

The point I was trying to make is Xojo is more powerful than Xojo Web. Xojo Web is just a pre-fabricated template for one style of Xojo applications.

I thanks Steve Wilson for bringing up some other tool to look at. For me, it makes XOJO becomes more competitive in terms of comparing side-by-side with other tools.

Soon, I will be introducing XOJO here in the Philippines. I can use this information so that I can respond to other developer here (in my country ) who might dare XOJO capability as development tools.

To Dave S,

Honestly, its funny to say XOJO is the development tool for “gray hair people”.

[quote=283945:@Michel Bujardet]I have seen time and again Steve insisting other products are better than Xojo. It puzzles me why he is still trolling around here. Is there no Qooxdoo, PureBasic or SpiderBasic forums ?[/quote]I like Xojo very much, I use it nearly every working day. If I want to layout a UI and connect up event handlers I find Xojo’s IDE a very productive tool. I also very much like the syntax. If I’m creating a console app I’m more likely to use PureBasic though because without a UI to worry about the Xojo IDE advantage is lost and PureBasic’s compiler creates tiny, blisteringly fast and self contained executables.

If you think it’s your duty as a Xojo forum member to sell the fiction Xojo is the best tool for every job then knock yourself out but your best friend is not a flatterer.

[quote=283947:@Phillip Zedalis]Comparing Xojo to tools even less well known than Xojo and/or one trick ponies is not a fair comparison. SpiderBasic seems to be web only so how exactly do you share code with your iOS app in SpiderBasic?[/quote]SpiderBasic is a new product, it’s an adaptation of the PureBasic compiler that outputs JavaScript rather than FASM, that’s why it shares PureBasic’s syntax. Android and iOS apps are promised for an upcoming release of SpiderBasic. Once done you’ll be able to share code between Windows. Linux, Mac, Android, iOS and Web (server side and client side).

Typical. Unlike you, I never think in absolute, or with a black and white consideration. Nothing is perfect. And by the same token, personal choices may vary. I reacted to the severe amount of dogmatism. Even if on a personal level you have objective reasons to pick another tool, you should keep some distance, as precisely you show in your last post.

just tried spiderbasic… reminds me of realbasic v1.0 some … 20 years ago … still some work to do !

Glanced at the SpiderBasic site. Seems interesting anyway. The client side aspect is intriguing.

Just what i thought!

Another option is Nsbasic appstudio
Is a nice front end ide for building client side biz apps. Can write in a basic which is compiled to JavaScript , or straight JavaScript . It was designed for mobile html5, but with today’s browsers it’s sort of all the same .
That said I still prefer Xojo by a mile.
Just the debugging alone makes the decision for me easy.

Just to add my 2p worth, I have for the last 12 months had to program in vb dot net because the Sage accounts developer stuff is .net based.

I used vb dot net back in 2005 or so and that is what pushed me over to RealBasic.

Now, things have changed! For data driven windows programming, .net is truly unrivalled. Once you get the hang of it, its a really nice way to work.

I still think XOJO is miles ahead for web based and x-platform. The web stuff in XOJO is so easy, it needs a MUCH, MUCH better listbox control, but thats really its only problem.

I have to admit that when I really need client side, I go for JavaScript first.

But for certain applications, most evidently mobile apps in bad connection environment such as industrial, storage facilities, retail where WiFi comes and go, or even is inexistant, having a module that is entirely client side, and which dumps all data entries when connection resumes, can be of strategic interest.

For people who are not terribly keen on learning JavaScript, a client side Basic is of interest.

I have seen several threads where Xojo Web users regretted that it is not able to function with intermittent connections.

[quote=283956:@ronaldo florendo]To Dave S,

Honestly, its funny to say XOJO is the development tool for “gray hair people”.[/quote]
I do not recall say or inferring that at all…

[quote=284075:@Michel Bujardet]For people who are not terribly keen on learning JavaScript, a client side Basic is of interest.

[/quote]

In a number of situations a LOT more client side code not dependent on constant server connection would be advantageous…

So it really would be nice to be able to “compile” Xojo code to javascript…

But I am pretty sure that ship has sailed when they decided on the architecture for the web edition… which was years before HTML5 was finalized.

  • Karen

Indeed, the main architecture of Xojo Web is definitely server side. But it does not mean that is a bad architecture in of itself. Especially when it comes to using databases, it seems like the proper way to go.

Where client side does shine, is when speed is paramount, and also as I posted above, when connectivity is intermittent. One can imagine having modules helpers client side, connecting to the server side framework when needed, which would greatly improve response times in mission critical features. I can think of a number of examples beyond inventory or surveys on tablets that report to the server side when they have a chance. Graphics come to mind.

My own experience with RubberViewsWE is that I simply could not implement live resize server sizd, where in JavaScript it became rather simple.

I do not have time at this moment with XDC coming, but I do intend to explore SpiderWeb and NSBasic later on. In particular, I think the issue with sessions ending when connectivity goes away could elegantly be solved by the notion of customer account, enabling reconnection to a context, or updates through HandleURL. In that sense those tools would not be in competition per se with Xojo, but come as a nice complement.

I been in NSBasic since version 1.2 and I made programs in Apple Ipad those days for my evaluation and it works!
That day, Android is not yet matured and the device is expensive.