Xojo controls

I was just wondering why Xojo do not give their custom drawn controls to the public and if so where can they be found. The hard work of the Xojo team could have more use and they could maybe supply some if not all of their controls. I do not see why not. This topic is nothing really that important but a discussion that I am interested in making. :slight_smile:

Thanks for checking out my forum post

I think something like this has been asked before and the answer was that they are not really up to scratch for general public use. I’ve made some custom controls I use in my projects that work great, but I wouldn’t want anyone else to use them as they could probably be easily broken if not used in a very exacting way. It’s one thing to create a custom control to work for a specific use in a specific project, but another completely to make that control robust and user friendly enough for generic use in any project by any user.

Interesting. Thanks

And another if there’s an expectation for it to be documented, extended, modified, or otherwise supported.

Xojo would need dedicated engineers for maintaining and extending the component sets and now seems they haven’t resources for that.

What about making them an open-source project? Xojo wouldn’t have to spend much time on them, as the community could maintain and improve them. Apps made with xojo would then have a more polished look & feel, which would benefit Xojo (the company). It’s unlikely that making them open source would hurt Xojo in any way, as they aren’t useful without Xojo itself, etc.

Agreed. There is a good community out there for this. I wonder what somebody from the company will think of this.

Been there. You guys can try it and I’ll watch and wait for your success. :slight_smile: Xojo community, until recently, didn’t like collaborative efforts very much. Once upon a time, I was discussing about collaborative works, making standard libraries and such. And criticisms bubbled around. Norman then told something like “We need a better listbox but it’s complex to maintain”. Then I told something like “Then let’s open source it and the community could try to enhance”. A half dozen of people wanted kill me due to this and talking about such open source efforts. I heard much “we make money of… and…”. Maybe some people orbit around Xojo faults and make money from lacking/fixing features. With less lacking features and working features, there will be less collateral profits for filling gaps. I don’t know, but I totally gave up.

Nobody wants to kill you, Rick. Here are two underlying facts that make a discussion of open sourcing the listbox rather inane. One is that customers who have existing code using the ListBox expect that code to continue to work. So there are going to be quirks of the current ListBox that infuse the whole things and can’t be removed. It likely makes it a more complicated beast than it needs to be. The second is that anyone capable of doing anything meaningful with the ListBox source could probably write their own from scratch in pure Xojo code with less effort than went into the conversation you reference. If you want to lead an open source ListBox project, then take a week and write one.

I’m not saying that to be a ■■■■ or rain down on your open source dreams. You can find in my product track record an instance or two of doing exactly that with an instance of some Real Studio thing that wasn’t quite up to my needs, and making source available either at no cost under a BSD style license, or for sale under a proprietary license.

Complete BS. If there were people working out of the goodness of their hearts doing a competent job on the stuff I fill gaps on, I’d focus the energy I spend there on other higher level things. There aren’t, and from the lack of “just do it” motivation from the vocal crowd that wants that, I’m not optimistic about it. You do not need special help to start filling gaps with open source solutions. None of us who have done that with free, open source, or paid solutions needed any special help that isn’t or wouldn’t already be available to you.

Oh! I feel the love. hahaha. :slight_smile:

From my observation, in the Xojo/RS community there is a big difference between voicing enthusiasm for an open source project and actually contributing solid, well thought out code to one. There’s also a big gap between “that would be great if it were available” and actually trusting a third party control enough to use it in one’s own project.

I would love if there were follow-through on all the grandiose visions. So far, as Tim points out, there isn’t much.

I think this is known as “reinventing the wheel”. And if all it takes is a week to write one, I’d like to know why Xojo is still fixing bugs in the one they wrote 10 years ago. I hear you guys on the open source stuff, with such a small community I think Tim is right, the participation level would probably be pretty low. All I know is I hope MBS and Einhugur stay in business a long time. I am highly dependent on their controls, because of shortcomings in the Xojo offerings. Open source projects would be great to address that, but as Brad and Tim pointed out, probably isn’t happening.

This particular difference is not in any way limited to the Xojo community. :slight_smile:

Guess what. Those of us who write third party tools have to / get to reinvent a lot of wheels. Doesn’t stop us from getting started. You’re probably not going to get special treatment on that just for declaring good, non-commercial intentions.

As for a week to write a ListBox from scratch… If someone wants to pay my hourly rate, I’ll be happy to jumpstart that. It’s mostly an exercise in bookkeeping.

Most Xojo users are not part of “us” (those that write third party tools for a living). The vast majority of those either hobbyist that don’t have the skills or users that are focused on their core business and don’t have time to reinvent wheels, and only do so when it is the best course of action. Most of the time using something off the shelf, makes more sense. I’m not asking for special treatment, in fact I’m not asking for anything. I’ve purchased almost every third party control, plugin and library ever made for RS/Xojo.

But when the Xojo offering doesn’t measure up and the 3rd party market doesn’t address it, you gotta start looking somewhere. Open Source can fill such gaps, doesn’t make sense to write my own. Take the TabPanel control on the Windows side. The native control in Xojo stinks, stank, stunk. Its ■■■■ ugly, flickers like a pinball machine and has different behavior in the IDE and the built EXE. I asked Xojo a couple of years ago what they were using internally for their tabs and they said it was a custom control, but it was too embedded and way too hard to strip out and put in the Control List for all to use. So I use Alex Restrepo’s replacement TabPanel control. Makes a lot more sense than me “manning up” and writing my own. If someone put out a quality TabPanel that does what I want, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

Steve, I’m talking about starting an open source ListBox project, not everybody writing their own. If having one of these is important to you or Rick, then start making one, even if it involves reinventing somebody else’s wheel. The bonus for doing that is that you don’t have to ask permission, you don’t require participation, and you don’t create silly politics that alienate people who could help you.

Open source projects are great if there are a few very dedicated people working on them for a common cause. I encourage you to start your own open source project. Just be aware that you will most likely be the only one, or one of the few, that will actually contribute to it. It has been my experience that one person will do most of the work and you will be lucky if you get any help.

The Xojo 3rd party market is kind of funny. No one wants to develop 3rd party solutions because few want to pay for the work (as someone who has developers products I feel this keenly). Then others complain that that there is no 3rd party market or there aren’t enough options. Hard to have it both ways.

Brad, you seem to forget that some objects in Xojo are so closely tied in with each other, to sub class means essentially doing the same process twice and is highly inefficient due to hidden properties to us end users.

Most API calls (least for windows) have some form of meaningful handle to use additional APIs against but we don’t get given that, and yet Xojo is storing that value for its own use somewhere. Subclass for compatibility with other objects, so the same API calls as the parent class, store them your own properties and have an application 2x slower than competitors due to unnecessary bloat?

As per “paying one’s wage” do we not already pay for this in our software license to Xojo? I fail to see how being able to see the source vs not being able to see it has anything to do with “not paying”. We’re not getting it for free currently, so we wouldn’t be getting it for free as open source.

Open source doesn’t even mean for free either (they could charge us for the source access in all fairness and qualify as “opensource”) - open source means the ability to expand upon an original code base, not get it for free, usually under the term that you too make it open (or pay for an additional closed source license which technically, gives Xojo an extra source of income)

And yet what damage does it really do to Xojo? Free bug fixes is harmful to xojo? A more robust library for Xojo as standard to make it more competitive against other solutions for free is harmful? Allowing programmers to have a better understanding of whats going on with their programs in xojo is harmful?

You seem fixated that somehow opensource code means “to give away xojo library for free” and yet it doesnt. As i understand Xojo’s main focus is 64bits, iOS and other core components; not adding to their library other than essential code fixes.

It seems more of a control issue than anything else, and lets not forget either their actually using some open source libraries AND based code off of other peoples open source code (which accounts for pretty much everything not handled by the OS for them).

but

which is, in part, I suspect why open source hasn’t worked very well

MacOSLib is probably the most successful open source Xojo code base that I know of and there might be 3 or 4 contributors