[quote]When it comes to web app security - you get what you pay for.
http://www.xojo.com/blog/en/2014/03/xojo-cloud-lowers-the-price-of-security-and-convenience.php [/quote]
I get all that with my current VPS provider and at the 3rd of the price of XC, maybe I have missed something?
They configured SELinux for you ? With all the right policies for your app and Apache (or nginx or whatever) ?
And the firewall (with an extremely paranoid view of the world) ?
And an intrusion detection system ?
And they include the ability to upload right from the IDE ?
Cool - would love to know who did that for you.
Now , there are hosting services that, for those so inclined, can be had at a lower price point.
But there are trade offs and IF you’re willing to accept those trade offs then have at it.
We can’t dictate that you do / don’t use them.
We’re not trying to.
Good for you.
Now it would be nice to share what company it is with other members, so they can benefit from that service as well. This is the purpose of this thread. TIA.
Interestingly I never had troubles with any VPS provider. I don’t think it’s attributed to any provider but rather what distro/image one uses.
Security btw is not an issue either. I usually use a blank ubuntu/debian/gentoo server image. There, anything but SSH is shut down anyway or configured to be not reachable outside of localhost.
We’re aware that if ALL you look at at is “I get X many CPU’s, X much memory, X much storage & X much bandwidth” you will be able to find cheaper services.
But then you really haven’t considered the total cost of running a web app
[quote=86908:@Norman Palardy]But then you really haven’t considered the total cost of running a web app
[/quote]
CGI-specifc bugs are a cost too. Just sayin…
[quote=86908:@Norman Palardy]We’re aware that if ALL you look at at is “I get X many CPU’s, X much memory, X much storage & X much bandwidth” you will be able to find cheaper services.
But then you really haven’t considered the total cost of running a web app[/quote]
Can you give an example of other costs ?
Setting up firewalls - and not just “open this port and close this port” but one that adapts to the traffic and whats going on appropriately. And that can at run time for your app open & close ports as needed.
Setting up SELinux - and configuring all the right rules for that so its secure & can detect intrusions.
Depending on what you value your time at (say $20 a month) then just an hour of you time once a month can make Xojo Cloud cost effective
All bugs cost time & effort sure. But then you might as well just accept that ANY bug in the OS, hardware, dev tools, libraries are “costs”. Its not like our bugs are somehow special in that regard.
And bugs in our cloud set up we can fix reasonably rapidly - can’t do that for other VPS’s.
What I meant was that for the price you pay for Xojo Cloud vs any other VPS means there is a certain amount of effort you don’t have to expend to set up a robust firewall, SElinux, and anything else nor do you have to FTP things back and forth. It’s effort YOU do not have to expend at all.
Anyone saying “I can find a cheaper VPS”
sure - I have no doubt you can.
Anyone saying “I can find a cheaper VPS that is configured identically that’s cheaper” - I doubt it since it won’t work the way ours does. It literally can’t unless you cloned our middleware (which would be a whole different discussion)
And anyone saying “I can find a cheaper VPS that is configured identically that’s cheaper and it works just like Xojo does with Xojo Cloud in every respect” - well thats patently untrue as there is not means for the IDE to work with it.
There is a value proposition in Xojo + Xojo Cloud that doesn’t exist for “my regular VPS service + Xojo”
And for some there isn’t enough value in that configuration - and thats fine.
Just want folks to understand that saying “I can find a cheaper VPS” isn’t comparing apples to apples.
Middleware as in what? Layer7 load balancer, IDS etc.
This middleware is it a bespoke Xojo delevoped from the ground up or just something that rackspace offer with VPS hosting services?
[quote=86924:@Norman Palardy]All bugs cost time & effort sure. But then you might as well just accept that ANY bug in the OS, hardware, dev tools, libraries are “costs”. Its not like our bugs are somehow special in that regard.
[/quote]
Actually, they absolutely are special are when considering deployment on Xojo Cloud. Ignore cost for a moment. The “pros” of Xojo Cloud include managed security. The “cons” include not being able to have an API which accepts POSTed data. See Feedback 29276. Or work with an existing database…
There generally is value in security done right. When it gets in the way of actually deploying an otherwise secure architecture and application, that wonderful security can actually turn into a cost.
[quote=86924:@Norman Palardy]Just want folks to understand that saying “I can find a cheaper VPS” isn’t comparing apples to apples.
[/quote]
Norman, I cannot help but feel you are somehow unfair to faithful customers who have along these years painfully worked at making Xojo Web Apps run on existing hosting solutions. Xojo Cloud was 100% vaporware for a year or so, while WE was supposed to be deployed. This forum is full of posts showing the wonderful contributions of Xojo users to the success of WE. And should I say, often with extremely limited involvement from Xojo, or should it be construed as support : no list of supported VPS, and often little more than saying that it was difficult to guess why it did not work. Without the involvement of members like Bob Keeney who took the time to write tutorials, or the advice of Phillip Zedalis, Brad Hutchings and others, WE would have ended the way of the dinosaurs.
Now that Xojo Cloud exists, you make it seem as this thread where members share pointers to hosting solutions is only about price and shortsighted concern for immediate cost. When I wanted to use WE to enhance my online delivery system, Xojo Cloud did not exist. And I could not count on Xojo to recommend hosting services. I was glad to receive support and insight from the community. Now, pardon me, Norman, but your constant denigration of anything else than Xojo Cloud is not productive. It feels as the all too loathed pluggin harassment reported when a member asks for advice. Please let members share their experience and references without inferring that none knows what he is doing 
[quote=86939:@Brad Hutchings]Actually, they absolutely are special are when considering deployment on Xojo Cloud. Ignore cost for a moment. The “pros” of Xojo Cloud include managed security. The “cons” include not being able to have an API which accepts POSTed data. See Feedback 29276. Or work with an existing database
[/quote]
Recall this is the FIRST release of the product and so those things will come - in time
Bugs in the CGI are no more (or less) special than any other bug in any framework
Not sure why you’d regard them as “extra special”
Denigrate - unfairly criticize
Please point out one spot where I have said that ANY other hosting provider is not worth it, etc,
I HAVE said that other hosting providers are not Xojo cloud & can’t be because they can’t be integrated with the IDE etc the way ours is. That’s just a fact.
I HAVE said that they don’t have the same set up we do for Xojo cloud and if they do they are certainly NOT obvious about it. I can’t tell from a browser of many VPS providers sites what they do provide for firewall set up, se linux etc.
But if you read I have said - several times - host where you want
Just understand what the trade offs are
But thats fine I’ll take the beating for this and sign off this thread
[quote=86979:@Norman Palardy]I HAVE said that other hosting providers are not Xojo cloud & can’t be because they can’t be integrated with the IDE etc the way ours is. That’s just a fact.
[/quote]
Not integrated exactly the same way yours is, no. But having done a much more complex media uploader for ordinary users 9 years ago, I’d estimate that someone could put a command-line tool and back-end WE app together in a week. Although, see CGI bug above, it would need to deployed stand-alone. It could be invoked easily as a build step.
[quote=86965:@Norman Palardy]Recall this is the FIRST release of the product and so those things will come - in time
[/quote]
But if you’re deploying or planning to deploy now, and need those features, kindof a showstopper. Talking to people, I think they’d be more than happy to do at least some things with XC if for no other reason to help a partner, if XC were a viable option. There seems to have been and continue to be a lot of focus on marginal security improvements and not much progress since beta on noted showstoppers.
[quote=86979:@Norman Palardy]But if you read I have said - several times - host where you want
Just understand what the trade offs are[/quote]
Thats denigration Life exists out of Xojo Cloud. Even if not perfect. And remember, WE is still a Xojo product out of XC. Or maybe building out of XC should be removed altogether ?
That’s telling people to be educated about what they are in for
You have to understand what the trade offs are if you host at bluehost vs digital ocean vs go daddy vs rackspace
Or if you host on a shared server vs a VPS
The rest about splitting cloud out of the IDE is just non-sensible
[quote=86991:@Brad Hutchings]Not integrated exactly the same way yours is, no. But having done a much more complex media uploader for ordinary users 9 years ago, I’d estimate that someone could put a command-line tool and back-end WE app together in a week. Although, see CGI bug above, it would need to deployed stand-alone. It could be invoked easily as a build step.
[/quote]
Remember - we’re at v1 not v38
So yes there is room for improvement - not news
So you’re complaint is “yeah but it doesn’t make toast yet and I really need toast and man when will it make toast ? I’m hungry I want toast !”
The things you’ve noted are “Yeah but I need it to do this TODAY and not being abel to do that is a showstopper”
Yes - we understand that but thats NOT in the feature set TODAY.
We HAVE to draw the line somewhere so we can get the v1.0 out - in use - in peoples hands.
Figure out what folks need , work on those and get version 2 out and so on.
We could have spent many more man months working on everything else - and NEVER getting it out to users.
So yes, you may need to host elsewhere and maybe when we have a newer version of things it will do everything you need.
This isn’t anything different than we’ve said from the outset
Xojo Coud will meet many users needs and work well for them.
And it won’t for some others.
We know that
[quote=87019:@Norman Palardy]That’s telling people to be educated about what they are in for
You have to understand what the trade offs are if you host at bluehost vs digital ocean vs go daddy vs rackspace
Or if you host on a shared server vs a VPS
The rest about splitting cloud out of the IDE is just non-sensible[/quote]
Sure, there are differences. Seems to me time to let information be fully available. Let us put price aside. XC has some very real advantages, and true limitations as well. Lack of FTP access, subdomains, HTML space, web storage, why not PHP to name a few. Other hosting solutions have their own advantages and limits. I just find it regrettable that full objective comparison data was never made available, so users know what their options are. This thread may not be pleasant for XC marketing, it is useful to inform customers.
No one’s stopping anyone from doing that so I’m not sure why thats an issue
We know what our service does provide and why we think thats advantageous
And we do know what it doesn’t
Love to but every other comparison (see previous posts) has been along the lines of “Well I can get cheaper hosting at
where ever”
I’ve said it man times my self YOU CAN GET CHEAPER HOSTING but then be aware of what you DO and DO NOT get when you host elsewhere - no more no less
Let me repeat again - this is VERSION 1.0 of our service
So yes there are things that are not there TODAY - but don’t imagine this means they will NEVER be there.
Well maybe never PHP as thats really kind of the antithesis of why you’re using Xojo 
You can see what is and what isn’t there, compare & decide for yourself what you must have and whether it works for you or not
It will for some, it won’t for others
But understand that our business proposition isn’t necessarily to be a VPS provider independently of the IDE
Maybe that happens but I doubt it as things really are customized for Xojo apps in many ways
The biggest issue we have is figuring out what other VPS providers DO provide.
I can’t find any mention of what the default firewall set up is with the images from many VPS providers - but I can certainly tell you how many CPU memory & bandwidth you get on nearly every last one
Xojo Cloud makes sense for a certain segment of our customer base right now - not everyone
We know that
But we also know what we have in store & where its going & that should expand the appeal
But it will likely never appeal to 100% of our user base
We know that