Occasionally I’ll make a small change a program but the version control will suddenly note a lot of changes. I’ll get a row of red (see pic)
When I check to see what those changes are it’s a bunch of tab stops being added to the program.
I’m 5 months into this project so it’s rather curious. I haven’t changed versions. And, I seem to recall them getting deleted and added from time to time.
Am I doing this somehow? Or is this a bug?
Yes, your feedback is much more detailed. For what it’s worth I also noticed the empty string changes and a few others that were of little importance. Nonetheless it’s hard to view my changes when faced with that astonishingly long list of meaningless changes. It’s like trying to find a pin in a needle stack.
That’s one reason why I use the RBP format and use Arbed to see the changes - Arbed filters out all those meaningless changes by default (you can still see them if you set the options). It also won’t tell you if items just get shuffled in their order, which used to happen often in VCP format as well (maybe not so much any more).
I looked at Arbed a few days ago when I was considering how to implement version control. To be honest, although I am sure that it offers powerful facilities, I could not easily see how to use it, dragging and dropping files onto small panels in a tabbed view (Drop Pad)seemed unnatural, and the links to video presentations on you website go nowhere. It reminded me of the conversation elsewhere about Xcode/Xojo and creating user interfaces. Have you considered a ‘makeover’ for Arbed? I am sure that I could use it but I don’t want to have to learn too many new UI concepts.
Fwiw, if you are using a tool like Cornerstone as an SVN client, ost of them have an option to ignore whitespace changes when showing you a diff.
Carl, I can’t do a makeover as long as I don’t have a clue what needs improvement and how to. And I currently have no ideas.
I’ve heard it before that people do not like the drop boxes, but what’s the alternative? The only alternative I can imagine is to have lots of menu commands, so you’d invoke “compare two files…” and then get two file selection dialogs, after which the comparison starts. I find that much harder to use, don’t you?
I’m open to suggestions, though.
Also, to integrate Arbed with version control., there’s a more automated procedure where you tell your Git client to use Arbed as the comparison tool, outlined here: http://www.tempel.org/Arbed/SCM
I know that Arbed’s UI is not the best designed, and I also lack videos to explain its operations better (and no, that linked video is only a presentation talk, not a guide, so you probably won’t learn much from it. I wonder, though, what happened to it.)
Without giving it much thought and not really knowing different things Arbed can do. I think I would go for a standard (dare I say Xojo-like) UI. ‘Drag and Drop’ or ‘Open Project’ gives you a project explorer (Source List) on the left. Clicking an item in the explorer displays it in the default format as a document in the centre. Clicking some toolbar/menu item/context menu allows you to display it in an alternative format. So for example click a class method and you get a source code view, but alternatively you can get a HTML view or a SCM diff view in a split window.
There are many desirable features that are ‘missing’ in Xojo. SCM is an obvious one, generating documentation (HTML or other), a powerful find and replace, refactoring, the ability to have ‘solutions’ of many projects, a powerful debugger UI, code generation templates… My favourite need is that I want to be able to edit the code for a whole class on the same screen, I really don’t like being babied by having to work method by method and property by property.
I hope that you didn’t take my comment the wrong way, Arbed could be the missing link, especially if Xojo provides a command line compilation option with the ability to run in debug mode from a command line too. I could see situations where Xojo would take the missing features and add them to their IDE but that would be good thing as a way of driving the improvements into Xojo and filling the gaps in the meantime, which could span many years.
[quote=28970:@Carl Clarke]Without giving it much thought and not really knowing different things Arbed can do. I think I would go for a standard (dare I say Xojo-like) UI. ‘Drag and Drop’ or ‘Open Project’ gives you a project explorer (Source List) on the left. Clicking an item in the explorer displays it in the default format as a document in the centre. Clicking some toolbar/menu item/context menu allows you to display it in an alternative format. So for example click a class method and you get a source code view, but alternatively you can get a HTML view or a SCM diff view in a split window.
There are many desirable features that are ‘missing’ in Xojo. SCM is an obvious one, generating documentation (HTML or other), a powerful find and replace, refactoring, the ability to have ‘solutions’ of many projects, a powerful debugger UI, code generation templates… My favourite need is that I want to be able to edit the code for a whole class on the same screen, I really don’t like being babied by having to work method by method and property by property.
I hope that you didn’t take my comment the wrong way, Arbed could be the missing link, especially if Xojo provides a command line compilation option with the ability to run in debug mode from a command line too. I could see situations where Xojo would take the missing features and add them to their IDE but that would be good thing as a way of driving the improvements into Xojo and filling the gaps in the meantime, which could span many years.[/quote]
Quite honestly IF Thomas were to build a competing IDE we’d probably take steps to halt that since it would be a violation of the EULA
Carl, thanks for your suggestions. Most of it makes sense. I’ll take some notes and will consider your input when I’m done with the next important release (Xojo support, which is currently in beta).
BTW, the wish to edit the entire source code in plain text is quite a popular one, even someone from RS staff has expressed a desire for it 
However, the problem with editing source code this way is that you’d have to close and re-open your project in the Xojo IDE every time in order to be able to compile the changes. I had made requests to RS and to Geoff in particular to improve on this, even offered to pay for the extra work, so that Arbed could notify the IDE to reload the project, but this never came to life. In a way, Arbed could be much better if Xojo would support it more willingly (or, even support 3rd party tools in general).
Also, Geoff seems to be somehow afraid that Arbed could become a threat to his product. Which is out of the question, because Arbed is useless on its own (no compiler, no debugger, no window editor, no support, and no framework code!). Arbed is just an editor. Still, Geoff doesn’t seem to understand that - even the comment from Norman suggests that there’s some unspoken fear of Arbed threatening Xojo. In some way, some at Xojo seem to think that an Editor is an IDE. I mean, even if Arbed would do what Carl suggests, how can this be considered an IDE? Without compiler, debugger, framework it’s nothing. And I wouldn’t be surprised that Geoff doesn’t want Arbed to be supported by Xojo just because there’s this unrealistic fear. I’ve tried to talk about this before, but I never get an answer that would help clear this up once and for all.
But we’re getting quite off-topic here. If you like to follow up on Arbed, please start a new thread or comment on the one where I announced Arbed (beta) for Xojo.
[quote=28978:@Thomas Tempelmann]
even the comment from Norman suggests that there’s some unspoken fear of Arbed threatening Xojo[/quote]
You did see where I said “IF Thomas were to build a competing IDE”.
“editor” vs “ide” is a blurry line and quite honestly what point an “editor” violated the eula is something I’m not qualified to determine.
Carls combined list would turn Arbed in to a competing IDE - and yes we’d not support that.
Its why the EULA is written as it is.
You should read it sometime.
Hi Norman, I did see that in the EULA
To me for a ‘human readable’ EULA it is not very clear, firstly what is a ‘derivative’ in this sense? Surely it would be a ‘development tool’ and needs to include a ‘Made with Xojo’ logo. If an alternative IDE for developing in Xojo was indeed a derivative and was marketable then it would just need to be written in non-Xojo.
But legalese aside, I suspect that it is a business decision as to whether Xojo Inc. would support such a product, after all there are many IDEs out there for the same languages and it only serves the developer better to have a choice or to work with something more familiar. Remembering that every developer using a potential alternative IDE would need a Xojo licence to run/debug/compile so it would not harm and perhaps even improve sales.
Some examples:
C/C++ - too many IDEs to mention
Objective C - Apple Xcode, & Jetbrains AppCode
C# - Visual Studio & Sharp Develop
Java - Eclipse & InteliJ
Ruby - Eclipse, RubyMine & Aptana
And of course many of then work with Notepad and TextMate and command line
I don’t think that the notion of ‘locking people in’ is a good one, especially for a development environment - I can easily see why Xojo Inc. would not want nor support a competing Xojo compiler though.
I assume that the same problem would exist if you have two Xojo projects open and using shared source code? Most applications just hook up to a file change notification from the OS and offer to or automatically reload the file.
Carl, perhaps they don’t want the complications of coordinating what they do with whatever Thomas (or another third party) dreams up and thinks is really important.
I think we all know who would get blamed if a popular third party xojo code editing tool got fouled up because of a new Xojo release.
Hint: It wouldn’t be the third party tool maker.
Until / unless we have a command line compiler the IDE etc IS our business & we have no vested interest in supporting tools that might take that business away. No company has any legal or moral responsibility to support it’s competition. In fact the CEO and board would have a fiduciary responsibility to protect their business and halt the competitors.
[quote=28985:@Joseph Claeys]I think we all know who would get blamed if a popular third party xojo code editing tool got fouled up because of a new Xojo release.
[/quote]
It really wouldn’t matter.
We make what changes we need to regardless of how they might / might not affect that certain third party tool because they make the IDE work the way we want it to.
I DID let Thomas know ahead of time about the changes we made this time around out of courtesy - but I’m certainly not obliged to.
If Arbed were considered “competitive” I could imagine this would change.
[quote=28987:@Norman Palardy]We make what changes we need to regardless of how they might / might not affect that certain third party tool because they make the IDE work the way we want it to.
I DID let Thomas know ahead of time about the changes we made this time around out of courtesy - but I’m certainly not obliged to.
If Arbed were considered “competitive” I could imagine this would change.[/quote]
I can see why the standardised languages with source code files are more popular in the (larger) software development world 
But seriously, if you want the Xojo IDE to be irreplaceable then make it the best IDE possible for everyone - at least add plug-ins to the IDE so that people like Thomas can extend it rather than supplement it externally. Of course that may not happen if you are too busy fixing bugs and then what if the plug-ins hurt the performance of the IDE and so on… The IDE is our business? I would have thought that the business was to sell licences to use Xojo and yes Xojo is delivered by the IDE because you have made it that way, but say that you had a competing IDE, you would still sell licences and still be in business. That is why is it not always the best idea to have a software developer making business decisions, sometimes the engineering viewpoint is too practical or limited.
BTW Norman, in business you can view your competitors as rivals or make them partners. You will never get rid of them if your market is large enough because that is what attracts them. So if you have no competitors then you have either just broke new ground and the competitors are coming or you are in a business that is so small that nobody else wants a share. The CEO & BOD have a responsibility to nurture and protect the business so halting competitors is not the only solution (nor the required legal one) especially when they are supportive ‘competitors’ and can enhance the business.
There has been put so much work into Xojo, especially into the framework, there’s just not way short of raising a company with at least half a dozen developers, and invest several years of work, to make anything that could compete with Xojo. So, this part is simply out of question.
I could never ever achieve to have such a competing system by my own, and I also have no interest in that. I have an interest in Xojo becoming better.
What I find rather irrational, though, is the thought that anyone would make a competition to Xojo, without Xojo. I want to support Xojo, not compete with it.
And even if I would write my own IDE, including compiler, debugger, Window layout designer and framework - then I wouldn’t need Xojo any more, and I’d have my own product which Xojo can’t even prohibit me from having, because it would then independent of Xojo. So, either whay, it’s irrational to fear Arbed becoming a threat to Xojo.
Oh, and one more note on the wording in the EULA. There was, about a year or two ago, someone who made a simple Basic programming tool, for teaching/learning BASIC. It used Xojo’s Scripting engine to allow this. Real Software felt threatened by this because it could take away potential customers from their target audience, i.e. beginners in programming. RS asked the maker of this tool to stop offering it, and he complied, voluntarily. The EULA is worded in a way to prevent the same from happening again should someone not submit to pleading, I believe.
But Arbed is nothing like that. Arbed is not designed to draw people away from Xojo, but instead add features that Xojo is missing, i.e. its goal is to do the opposite of harming Xojo. Yet, comments like Normans above suggest that Xojo keeps watching me with suspicion, and that there’s still some belief I could write a “IDE” that would harm their business.
It’s sickening, and there’s no way out of it. It’s the most frustrating thing for me keeping to advertise the usefulness of Arbed when Xojo Inc. is less than interested in supporting me (yes, Norman did notify me recently, and I appreciated that, which shows I’m not totally ignored, but I’m talking about asking for more features from the IDE so that Arbed could work more smoothly with it, and that just doesn’t seem not possible for above distrust reasons, apparently).
[quote=28997:@Carl Clarke]I can see why the standardised languages with source code files are more popular in the (larger) software development world 
But seriously, if you want the Xojo IDE to be irreplaceable then make it the best IDE possible for everyone - at least add plug-ins to the IDE so that people like Thomas can extend it rather than supplement it externally. Of course that may not happen if you are too busy fixing bugs and then what if the plug-ins hurt the performance of the IDE and so on… The IDE is our business? I would have thought that the business was to sell licences to use Xojo and yes Xojo is delivered by the IDE because you have made it that way, but say that you had a competing IDE, you would still sell licences and still be in business. That is why is it not always the best idea to have a software developer making business decisions, sometimes the engineering viewpoint is too practical or limited.
[/quote]
I dont make those decisions
Geoff & his board etc do
And thats the decisions we have today
[quote=29004:@Thomas Tempelmann]
It’s sickening, and there’s no way out of it. It’s the most frustrating thing for me keeping to advertise the usefulness of Arbed when Xojo Inc. is less than interested in supporting me (yes, Norman did notify me recently, and I appreciated that, which shows I’m not totally ignored, but I’m talking about asking for more features from the IDE so that Arbed could work more smoothly with it, and that just doesn’t seem not possible for above distrust reasons, apparently).[/quote]
The biggest reason is we have no time to do that right now & our interests lie elsewhere
Bang for the buck as it were
There is a feedback report for an API to the IDE for plugins etc - but its still sitting there