Using Arbed? Important notice about support for vcp format

There’s a common saying in about “the customer is always right”.
However, that does not extend to “the customer gets to treat the staff however they want and the staff have to take it”.
Thomas has pushed that limit time & again.
I and others do not have to take that treatment from him.

[quote=30830:@Joseph Claeys]
This comes off as a bit dispiriting. It could be read as “get used to it” or we could read it as providing context. I’d suggest following up with “but I’m sure we when we move to the single file format we can get it the issues worked out.” Throw us a bone Norman![/quote]
The issue is NOT the file format - I thought I said that.
It’s the in memory representation of a project using variants that is the enormous pile of work - and it not JUST the use of variants but the autoconversions that they do. We’ve been slowly fixing issues with our use of variants so that we CAN make all the formats more stable & reliable. However rewriting the internal project representation is not something you just do in a couple days and expect everything to continue working. It’s long term incremental improvements we’re making.

I don’t think Thomas was saying Xojo was incapable of fixing it. I thought he was encouraging Xojo to fix it before the new format-to-rule-them-all. I guess you have to put a feedback request in for that.

My beef is with Norman personally. I am tempted to carry it out here further, but that’s not right, it should remain private.

But let me say this: It seems that Norman is the one who has to answer most of the bug reports I put in, and he probably doesn’t like it. And I can be a jerk when writing bug reports, and he has to take it. No wonder he’s getting grumpy about it and kicks back when he can. And there’s some truth in what Joseph wrote about admitting their mistakes. I see that Norman never does that towards me, and since I’m aware of it, I push him about it even more. It’s an inflamatory spiral, unfortunately. I’ve made some attempts to get out of it in the past, and maybe Norman has, too. And even despite this long history of unpleasant encounters, when we met at RW 2012, we could sit at a table and have friendly conversations. Part of this ever-escalating problem is the distance, and my low threshold to dealing with the daily frustrations I experience with Xojo.

Mind you, I do have quite a good understanding of how the IDE works, how the compiler works, how much of its framework works. I’ve programmed all such things myself in the past, and I’ve worked briefly for RS in 2008, getting all the source code disclosed to me. I may not be up-to-date with the latest concepts, but I know all the basics. I’ve been programming for 30 years professionally, doing nothing else. Reverse engineered (no, not just using nm but writing my own tools to disassemble and analyse programs), wrote parts of and maintained an entire an operating system, rewrote half a compiler, and lots of other things that give me a good understanding what the IDE can and should do. With that background, I see a lot of coding errors where others only see an odd behavior, if they even notice it. I often instantly know what was done wrong, maybe even why. I walk around in this software world with radar vision, it feels to me. I see faults everywhere and I want them fixed, or at least pointed out and understood by those who caused them so that they’re avoided in the future. Because, most such mistakes are part of a pattern or general misunderstanding or simple inexperience, not just an accidental typo. So, they’re things that one can learn to avoid if one is taught so.

I feel compelled to do that. It’s something that takes control of me and I get excited and agitated about it. It’s a blessing (for being a much appreciated programmer that others rely on for doing a thorough and always satisfying job) and a curse - because it leads to this obsession that lets me lose all calmness and become overly focussed and aggressive to the point that I upset others who don’t deserve this.

But you may also have noticed that I can mellow out. E.g, I’ve recently removed all the inflamatory phrases from my latest blog article after having a chat with someone who gave me a better perspective on the topic. Also, I’ve tried to apologize or at least admit my fault publically after simillar negative behaviors of mine.

I am a jerk, and I don’t like how I keep pushing others off. That’s why I chose programming as my profession: Because it allows me to accomplish something without having to deal with people that I might upset. Maybe that was a bad decision - but that was made 30 years ago and there’s no going back to change it.

And no, I’m not bipolar. I am just a person with bad social skills who found one thing he’s really good at.

So, deal with it, ignore me, but please do not attack me, because then I only get worse. Instead, tell me I was out of line, and I’ll calm down, and if you could even throw in a “you made a good point, though”, I’m almost entirely happy.

Hey, that’s exactly what I tried to do :wink:
Have a nice day.

[quote=30927:@Thomas Tempelmann]My beef is with Norman personally. I am tempted to carry it out here further, but that’s not right, it should remain private

And no, I’m not bipolar. I am just a person with bad social skills who found one thing he’s really good at. So, deal with it, ignore me, but please do not attack me, because then I only get worse. Instead, tell me I was out of line, and I’ll calm down, and if you could even throw in a “you made a good point, though”, I’m almost entirely happy.[/quote]
Thomas, you do make some good points, I think you would get an entirely different reaction if you didn’t. There are many others on here who also make good points and some use poor communication skills. As a good software developer, you are always on the lookout for a new technology, technique or language that makes you better - just think you could be more powerful at getting your point across by adopting new communication skills. Sure you don’t have to, you can stick with the ‘I am who I am’ approach and I am certainly not trying to tell you what to do because that rarely works (for me telling you or for you telling Norman too, etc.). An old very wise and very rich boss of mine once advised me that if you want someone to adopt your idea then make them think it is their own idea. He was certainly powerful enough to be in a position to say ‘just do it’ or ‘it’s your mistake’ but he understood that was not enough to get it done well.

Somebody print him a certificate. People like certificates. And get him a copy of Fight Club. TT needs to learn the first rule of Fight Club. It’s a good metaphor for life.

Some people are passionate about what they do :slight_smile:

Passionate doesn’t excuse behavior

I’ve met TT and watched him present in Atlanta. He is passionate and engaging. I enjoyed listening to him. He’s a good guy. I’m glad he’s part of the community.

Maybe not, but we all have good days and bad days. I tend to be rather forgiving, because I want people to forgive me when I eventually mess up, as I know I will. :slight_smile:

No, but it often explains it. And that’s the first step to creating an understanding.

Thomas can behave however he wants with/towards someone else - not me any more.
It’s not part of my job to put up with the sort of personal emails & rants that I get from him.
I’ll still read the feedback reports and deal with the ones I need to.
Nothing more.

I smell burning bridges - shame really… Everyone can be right as long as you stop telling people that they are wrong, you need to learn to give people some room to manoeuvre rather than trying to corner them. We (except me) are all clever people on here, you don’t even get to be average at software development without being clever.

I have no problem with Thomas being correct.
I’ve confirmed & fixed a number of his bug reports over the years.
I have a problem with him being, in his own words, “a ■■■■” to me & other engineers.

Perhaps folks should remind him that being “a ■■■■” is something HE can control & can change. I can’t. I’ve tried.
But I’m not going to continue to.

That’s his loss.
My sanity will thank me.

:slight_smile: Norman, I don’t know if you understood where I was directing my comments at, just for absolute clarity it wasn’t at you and if you thought it was then it is probably a sign that you are getting defensive due to too much attack??

I think that most, if not all, people will understand that you are doing a great job, not just by trying to help on this forum but also by trying to solve issues and enhance Xojo. There is this ‘ego’ thing in software development and every so often it really does help to be able to achieve something by being so confident and determined - unfortunately it also upsets other people and is too ‘high maintenance’ in the majority of team or partnership cases.

Guys - my advice and it maybe worthless to you, just state your case, make you point, respond, etc. but remember to be nice, respectful and gently persuasive - don’t shove it down other people throats because you probably won’t like their reaction.

When unlabeled the serial nature of forums did make me believe they were aimed at me as my comment immediately preceded yours.

TT is the only person who attacks like this and the forum posts ARE his respectful posts from what I’ve received via email over the years.
Hence the spam filters I use.

Lets get back to the original issue. As a user, if I didn’t have the benefit of Normans explanation, and were trying out Xojo; I would quickly lose confidence in the product if my diff’s produced these strange results after each save.

From the users point of view, something is broke.

[quote=31005:@Joseph Claeys]Lets get back to the original issue. As a user, if I didn’t have the benefit of Normans explanation, and were trying out Xojo; I would quickly lose confidence in the product if my diff’s produced these strange results after each save.

From the users point of view, something is broke.[/quote]
We All Know! Just do a search on feedback for ‘vcp’ - I think it is plainly and simply obvious that there are outstanding problems along with a history of closed/verified & fixed ones. So now what?

LOL - I give up :slight_smile:

[quote=31006:@Carl Clarke]We All Know! Just do a search on feedback for ‘vcp’ - I think it is plainly and simply obvious that there are outstanding problems along with a history of closed/verified & fixed ones. So now what?
[/quote]

I suppose there are several options

  1. blindly commit everything all the time - this may just make your diff’s “noisy” in that they will have lots of unrelated changes.
  2. review each change in each item and only commit the bits you really want - this is what we do. Some tools make this relatively trivial. Some don’t. I can say that the one I am using makes it very easy to review each change & only keep the ones I want and revert the rest.

And if you have reproducible steps to show some issue post a feedback report about it.
Some we can fix readily.
Some involve much deeper issues and require significantly more engineering & refactoring to even begin to fix.

Being right is a b*tch. I can relate to Thomas and that compulsion to fix what is wrong around you. However, I had to learn the hard way that being right is usually not the most important thing. It can get you stuck in a particular stance and unable to see what else is going on. Every so often, there is this one little detail that you’re not aware of that takes you from being right, to being dead wrong and a real jerk, to boot. But even when you are right, being right isn’t the most important thing if you want to make positive changes.

25 years ago, I was called into my bosses office where he said, I just had Suzie (not her real name) in hear in tears. I’m afraid I may have to lose one of you. The thing is, I was just trying to help. And I really liked Suzie. I would never do anything intentional to hurt her. But I ran roughshod all over the poor girl and darn near lost my job. Even though I was clearly the better programmer, I certainly wasn’t the better employee.

Heck, even I bristle and many of Thomas’ posts, and I’m not even involved.