Thoughts on Valentina?

[quote=35843:@Ruslan Zasukhin]1) you say that you use SQLite. But you mean you use it as DATABASE. right?
SQLite do not generate reports itself. yes?[/quote]

I’m not trying to write reports. That must be one of the other commenters. This is the essence of my question:

This is where I’m at. I’m starting to wonder if it’s even worth it. This must be how folks on Windows feel when people rave about Macs. Oh sure it might be better but SQLite is what I know.

Ok, here’s an amusing twist to this saga. I wanted to pull up something about Valentina that I read this weekend so I used the spotlight search with the keyword “Valentina.” Turns out I own a license to this product due to it being part of a previous OmegaBundle that I purchased because it had other components I was interested in.

True story:

This doesn’t really solve anything for me. I guess I should see if I can still use the reg code, or download the older version, or whatever. Now it feels like I have a new project to add to the growing list.

[quote=35842:@Joseph Claeys] I still don’t know what this client is. Is that just an ORM class that talks to the database?

This is not just ORM class. It is much more complex internally and more effective.

  • Valentina engine was started as alrternative to relational dbs in 1993 year.
  • at first It was named it as OO-db, later switched to OR Object-Relational db.
  • VDB engine (and VReports, VServer, VStudio) are made with C++

In 1998 year we have plug Valentina engine into REALbasic 2.x.
We made that as set of classes:
VDatabase, VCursor – most dbs have this analogs and only
VTable, VField, VSets, …
Total we have about 40 classes and 1000 methods.
This not counting power of SQL

So we try to make Object-Model as on DB level, so on API level for IDEs/languages, which are self Object-Oriented.

In about 2002 we have introduce VSERVER, and of course we was need VCLIENT.

It is obvious that we have try to implement it in such way that existed code of desktop apps was easy switched to client-server mode.

This was big technical challenge. And we resolve it in beauty way. For example, we have mini-parser of our C++ headers, it parses them, generate intermediate XML files, then works XSLT, then works sources generator, which generate a lots of VCLIENT sources automatically. And so on.

But vclient is not just proxy-objects. We have the second level of all that classes, inherited from generated. Where we have made many optimizations on client-side to reduce the number of calls to remote VSERVER.

Exists many other optimizations in our VCLIENT-SERVER:

  • server-side cursors – VERY comfortable way to modify records.
  • client-side cache – keep records to reduce calls to vserver.
  • protocol – is more effective than have mySQL … proved by Xojo developer - he did ORM for Xojo, than for ObjC now. Tests at first against mySQL, then against VServer. Nice was – its ORM – a lots of small queries. Even not huge result-queries

Disclaimer, :slight_smile:

I think Antonius did means that Valentina API itself is more OO-style, than pure C of e.g. mySQL or SQLite.
You already have classes.

These classes work 99% same for LOCAL db, so for client/server.

It is still possible think about true ORM around Valentina DB also … and we have plugged it for example on PDO of PHP…
Thorsten have its own cool ORM on ObjC around Valentina model, with use of its unique features, for example Links.

We still going extend Valentina DB model: inheritance, arrays, types, …
Then ORM will be even more logical easy, without that hard “impedance mismatch” …

[quote=35403:@Antonis Vakondios]The main benefit is the reporting server. As minor, you don’t need to get Xojo db licenses. For the performance, it is better than mysql. Also is free of charge as db engine.

Well, I will not agree with you here. Report Server and report engine is raising dragon, as we hope. :slight_smile:

But Valentina DB engine also matters.

BTW, many functionality of reports are based on power of Valentina SQL engine and VServer, and also tightly integrated. For example, protocol of VServer understands that Report classes.

Thank you for this points, Kim!
Well, about reports we have big plans.

** We already have in beta folders Valentina For Java. This opens us doors to Java developers and become direct competitor to Jasper reports. Valentina Reports right now can do things that Jasper reports cannot. Although we still have todo e.g. Table control.

** And yes we going expose reports much more going to that, including separate site.

** App Store – nope. In the description present at end description of PRO features, and Report Editor with description what is there here.

Do you mean the EULAs?

Licensing is really tricky - and it gets even trickier when you are combining one entity’s intellectual property with someone elses. Just ask the Xojo guys or anyone else who makes tools. I can say though that licensing software components is easier than…licensing content.

Your needs might be simple. But Antonis might be simple too - just in a different way. With licenseable components, the only business you don’t really want is something that directly competes against you with your own technology. Unlike content, a component vendor doesn’t want limits if you are a single dev, Green Peace or the NRA.

Regarding the five licenses - we have a lot of customers who are doing team development. For them, 5 licenses isn’t enough. For single devs with multiple computers, one of each is quite handy. And also, we’ve left it open for Omegabundle buyers to gift their extra licenses to their friends or customers.

[quote=35830:@Kim Kohen]So we don’t need VStudio to create reports as the web site implies we do?

I think part of the confusion is that VReports seems lost. It is not listed in the main Products menu of the web site and not mentioned on the download page. If I go to the Reports ADK page it says I can download it from the App store and leads me to VStudio. The App Store description of VStudio doesn’t mention Reports at all. [/quote]

You need Valentina Studio Pro to make the .vsp based templates. The Report Editor is there. It has the visual tools to add controls and bind them to statements.

There’s a new website under development now. Its 1-2 months away from launch I suspect but its going to make it easier to do many things, better support multiple languages and the like., and a simple base design. Your comments on Valentina Reports ADK are not lost on us :slight_smile:

[quote=35830:@Kim Kohen]As for the other products, my head still spins when I hear the licensing discussed. I can understand what you’re trying to do, it’s just more complicated than it needs to be for someone who simply wants a backend data source. MySQL (for me) is simple. Install and run (the free) Sequel Pro or any one of hundreds of other GUIs. With Valentina we are reliant on VStudio and if we have problems with it, we’re stuck.

Kim, with all respect … mySQL – simple to download ?

lets go to page

BIG list of only products to choose to dowlnoad, longer than 27’’ monitor…
what to choose? Every new vistor can easy choose without learning at first of docs ??
You really say so?

Okay, lets count I KNOW that I want community server, I click link DOWNLOAD and come to next page

Here I see

a) MENU with 10 choices

a) for MAC OS X – BIG list of archives, for x32, x64, … DMG , TAR

does they have a SINGLE archive to download EVERYTHING ??? No.
But somehow you become used to this huge number of archives?

Now lets looks on VSERVER download page:

ONLY ONE archive for OS X. – and you say we are not simple ???

I also can now ask you:

  • Where on mySQL site is pluigin for REALBasic? where?
  • for ObjC ?
  • for NET C#?

I have go to their download page and I have not see that also. What a bad site mySQL have… Right? :slight_smile:

I really appreciate Ruslan taking the time to respond. While interesting, a lot of it wasn’t really germane to my issues. But again, it was a good read. The one thing that makes me double down and forge ahead is the comment above. Being told how it works is one thing, but responding with a desire to address my concerns it’s quite another.

Another suggestion, put up an esoTalk forum. I realize you have a mailing list but I’m looking to get away from that format. I was planning on resigning from the NUG this week and reclaiming my email. Plus, as a potential new user with your product it would be nice to just search for my topic (which is obviously not an outlier issue) instead of asking the noob questions “how do I database?”

It won’t be esoTalk, but a forum system is coming that will be integrated into our site (we’d have to re-engineer esotalk and there’s an already working alternative). I’ve always been fond of forums for that very reason - you can easily find out what others have said before.

Right now we’ve been talking about something like it (the stackoverflow style - like esoTalk) vs traditional forums like PHPBB, etc. Im more inclined towards the stackoverflow style myself. What do you think?

I am in the same boat as everyone that has commented on the difficulty in understanding/navigating the paradigma site and understanding the product line. Thanks to Ruslan and Lynn for the replies and explanations. A lot has been clarified, and I look forward to the re-designed site…

I have one additional question. Can Valentina Reports be used with cubeSQL Server?

Thanks again.


Also I should mention that

  • Valentina Report engine can use SQLite files only when itself runs as single-user local engine.
  • When we use report engine under Valentina Reports Server, then SQLite cannot be used as datasource, only other DB servers

[quote=35877:@Lynn Fredricks]Right now we’ve been talking about something like it (the stackoverflow style - like esoTalk) vs traditional forums like PHPBB, etc. Im more inclined towards the stackoverflow style myself. What do you think?

I’m not a fan of either which is why I mentioned esoTalk. But of the two I guess StackOverFlow is the lesser of the two evils. I’ve never understood the breakdown of comments versus answers. Oftentimes the comment has a better answer than the answers. But it’s a million times better than PHPBB’s. Those are awful for so many reasons. The searches are a kludge, and the layout is unnecessarily busy. If you go that way then don’t allow people to put taglines in their responses. I find myself rereading some persons clever quote over and over. They just add meaningless text to the whole affair.

BTW: Why don’t we ever see you guys at the Xojo Conventions? If you want to create a following then that’s the place to be. A lot of the attendees are Mavens (tipping point reference) in the community and that would get you a lot more free buzz.

That’s a pity…

Note please, that if you use Valentina Server as Report Server, nothing prevent you to use it as DB server also.
SQLite db is quite simple usually, to be “converted” into Valentina DB.
CubeSQL was made, as you know, as direct competitor to VServer for RB/Xojo market.
For us there is no sense to support it. Sorry.
I already have show on this forum in some thread, that it is more expensive for most scenarios of Xojo devs and can do less of VServer.
I will be very interested to hear where you see it more “simple” of VServer. Not urgent … if and when you have time and wish :slight_smile:

Each VServer always is DB Server + Report Server + … Server
yes, relatively soon we will introduce one more Feature of VServer :slight_smile:

5.5b21 of VReports already have added support of MS SQL (Microsoft) in 5.5b21. It will go into v5.5 release in few days.
Into v5.6 we will finish Oracle as datasource.

One more explain of Big picture:

Two (2) Technologies:
1. Valentina DB
2. Valentina Reports

that are implemented/integrated in the next Four (4) Major PRODUCTS:
A) Valentina SERVER
B) Valentina Studio
C) Valentina DB ADK
D) Valentina Reports ADK

** You cannot download just Valentina Reports “product”, because Valentina Reports - is NOT a product. It is technology.

** There is no way to provide a SINGLE archive of “everything” even for Xojo, at least because we need
* mac/win/linux archives
* for each OS may be 32/64 bit
* VStudio and VServer are separate archives.
* A lots of people download Valentina Studio jus as Manager of SQLite or mySQL. They do not need reports at all.
* Why Xojo developer of Desktop only app need download in that single archive copy of VSERVER?
* Should we include into this single archive all languages? C, C#, VB, PHP, … ? I can image after this questions about why is this here?

No sense…
Believe us, we a lots of times discussed this here. And so far this is the best combination.

But something should be improved if people get confused. We try listen and define what exactly confuses. Kim did very good explain about search of Valentina Reports “products”. I think we need make Menu of Products as above in this post about technologies and products.

Thank you to everybody for great discussion! If I have missed some specific questions WHY? HOW TO?, please please please keep to ask them.

Ruslan, as always I admire your enthusiasm for Valentina but it’s best not to get too defensive :slight_smile:

Regarding MySQL, remember until Lion it was preinstalled on OSX Server. Even now to download and install is simple. I already have a Xojo plugin so I wouldn’t be looking on the MySQL site for it. Your Reports ADK page links to a download page where reports is not even mentioned - surely you’d agree that’s not good. But I hear what you are saying, you will look to fix that.

My advice - have a Reports ADK page that simply says:

To add reports to your App you need the Reports ADK (download here)
To design reports for your App you need VStudio (download here)

With regards a single archive/download, my thoughts is you just include them (ADK and VStudio) together. If you have different versions for different platforms just list them clearly.

Despite how simple you and Lynn think it is, the fact that so many people are saying they are confused should be an indicator it’s not as clear as it should be.

We take your comments seriously and they are appreciated. I’ve been reading through all the comments here. We are working on a new site and Id like us to proactively deal with these things on design rather than re-design.

I get the downloads issue especially and the license tracking. For downloads, its all “Valentina for X” rather than DB or Reports. That’s fixable one way or the other, in that Valentina for Xojo contains both sets of components for the specific platform- reports and db - perhaps that just needs better identification, ie Valentina ADK for Xojo for Mac installer installs both reports and db components.

While you’re at it, give those servers some juice.