Software is software is software. Computer software, though an engineering instrument, remains the manifestation of an idea. Copyright is such that it allows protection only of the actual incarnation of the idea. The wording for a book, the music partition, eventually the story. That said, to go after somebody takes proving there was infringement beyond reasonable doubt. And that takes research and lawyer doing. Which both are expensive. And take time.
Contrary to books, the life span of our products in often counted in months. It would be futile to hope taking to court people who often are fly by night and have no assets to go against. And by the time the court decides, both original and counterfeit have stopped selling.
[quote=111979:@Michel Bujardet]Software is software is software. Computer software, though an engineering instrument, remains the manifestation of an idea. Copyright is such that it allows protection only of the actual incarnation of the idea. The wording for a book, the music partition, eventually the story. That said, to go after somebody takes proving there was infringement beyond reasonable doubt. And that takes research and lawyer doing. Which both are expensive. And take time.
Contrary to books, the life span of our products in often counted in months. It would be futile to hope taking to court people who often are fly by night and have no assets to go against. And by the time the court decides, both original and counterfeit have stopped selling.
Indeed the best protection is innovation.[/quote]
Well said Michel.
I just discovered today a clone of my app Check Writer. It so happens an idiot decided to give a very unfair and inaccurate bad review to my app, so I clicked “All reviews by this user”, an lo and behold, he had copied and pasted the same ■■■■ for an application called Just Checking, that does exactly the same as my app, and is priced identically.
I am convinced the rascal who bad mouthed my app and the clone is preparing yet another duplicate.
When I started, I had only one competition, with a very different app
I found some ‘unmentionables’ had released a competing app to one of mine after opening my app and stealing the picture resources lock stock and barrel!
(theres no protection for pictures in a Xojo mac app)
Almost as bad as an Australian ‘reseller’ who signed a contract to sell 1000 copies of another app, but duplicated thousands more on the quiet.
When they went broke (yay!) my unpaid-for software was found in a warehouse and sold to drop shippers who flooded the market and ebay with an out of date version which still generated support calls 5 years after that software became obsolete.
THAT was painful…
Theres no way to chase down the crooks in other countries. Or even in your own, unless you have an address and a baseball bat…
[quote=139287:@Jeff Tullin]I found some ‘unmentionables’ had released a competing app to one of mine after opening my app and stealing the picture resources lock stock and barrel!
(theres no protection for pictures in a Xojo mac app)[/quote]
You could NOT drop them into the app when you create it in Xojo.
Add them in some encrypted form using a copy file step and decrypt them when you need them.
You’ll need icns files so the Finder shows document & application icons but the rest of the resources you could encrypt so they can’t be lifted so easily.
You can base 64 encode the picture data then store it as a constant and reconstitute the picture with decodebase64 and picture.fromdata. This at least means that the picture resources aren’t in the app bundle as pngs, jpgs, etc.
I have to revive this thread. I need to share my horror, faced with the most brutal attack on intellectual property, and the most dispeakable contempt for other developers.
About a dozen days ago, in a thread where someone asked for a replacement to Elastic Window https://forum.xojo.com/21525-elasticwindow-code-or-replacement
I said I had an equivalent class for my own use. James Redway persuaded me to make it available to the community, so on April 10, I made available RubberViews, which I think is a honest programmer’s work.
After having disappeared for a while, Matthew Combatti comes up in the same thread on 04/15 and says he has the same kind of product. Competition can be good for the consumer. Fine.
On 4/17, he announces ElastiControls at $50.00 unencrypted. As a comparison, Elastic Window source code was $150.00. Fine again, if good for the consumer.But he adds the not yet released Web version will be bundled free. That is starting to look like chain saw massacre. Once again, Elastic Window WE was sold as a separate product for $100 or so. https://forum.xojo.com/21709-elasticontrols-v1-7
I receive an incensed email from a member of this forum who finds my prices steep. I lower RubberViews again to try and meet that, at $29.95 Unencrypted.
Now, half an hour ago, he goes around here saying among other things :
The software industry has accustomed us all of the most eccentric personalities and the most outlandish behavior, but this one must be worth the Guiness book of records. All of us here depend on various degrees on sales of the programs we produce. Third party developers often go out of their way to support Xojo users in ways that very few publishers do. On such a small market as development tools go, there is no chance to see sales as big as general public applications, for instance in the MAS.
To keep the quality of a program, especially a development tool, takes a lot of dedication an time. The least one could expect is the meager salary of a few bucks. Otherwise it is not worth it, and like Christian with Elastic Windows, just leave users in the cold to go find more hospitable grounds. When I released RubberViews, it was not to “profit from developers”, but to make available to the community a good quality replacement for Elastic Window, and if possible, an even better product. I make my down elsewhere. let alone in the MAS, or selling my fonts.
So, in about five days, an individual barges in with a product 3 times less expensive than what he copied, then proceeds to thrown in a non yet released version for free, 4 days later goes down an extra 50%, and one day afterward decides to give the software away for free. This is just like killing the girl so nobody has her.
This is not competition. It is blatant sabotage.Now what is a honest developer to do ? I guess the damage is done. Now the Xojo community will not have a well maintained, evolving solution for intelligent layout. Maybe just a half baked unfinished project the like of so many buggy things around.
Even with the best of intentions, I frankly do not see how I could ever justify even such a low price as $9.95 as compared to zero, nil, zilch, nada. We all need free lunches smell funny sometimes, but it does make a honest craftsman look and feel terrible.
In 30 years or so in this industry, I have seen my content of loonies. But not quite like this yet.
Sorry for venting, but I needed to. The “bottom feeding scummy programmers” Sam has to contend with at least do not spit in the soup. I guess all I have to do now is put RubberViews on auto pilot, and forget about making it grow.
I was wondering about this when I saw the other thread. Hopefully, people will see that quality is more important than price so in several years time your product is still around they’ll decide it’s worth it when they can’t find the other developer. Sadly, it gives all developers a bad name and simply hurts the community when this sort of crap is pulled.
From the perspective of a developer that has no horse in this race it looks like a money grab for that developer. I believe in karma and it will bite them some day.
Hmmm… I guess can you "fire sale "software after all… Sad really, but don’t be discouraged Michel. I am with Bob and customer relationships still hold value. Your ability to support your product the way you do along with the longevity that you provide is worth more than a flash in the pan price. Remember that the developers that “buy or donate” to that project must then rely on that code base for their future success. I can tell you as a professional using Xojo I would pay more for support/longevity knowing it will be a piece of the success of our software.
Resist the urge to price compete since you have value and then remember you can’t make everyone happy.
I agree with @Bob Keeney and @Mike Cotrone here, I buy products from people I have relationships with. Not on price. Good luck! I hope things work out for you.
[quote=181547:@Mike Cotrone]Hmmm… I guess can you "fire sale "software after all… Sad really, but don’t be discouraged Michel. I am with Bob and customer relationships still hold value. Your ability to support your product the way you do along with the longevity that you provide is worth more than a flash in the pan price. Remember that the developers that “buy or donate” to that project must then rely on that code base for their future success. I can tell you as a professional using Xojo I would pay more for support/longevity knowing it will be a piece of the success of our software.
Resist the urge to price compete since you have value and then remember you can’t make everyone happy.[/quote]
I do not intend to go freeware. And have no plans to abandon the product either. People have suffered enough when Elastic Window was pulled on them.
Price is only a part of the equation. Documentation and Support ( with @Christian Schmitz or @Björn Eiríksson as great examples ) makes your Addon better. I was thinking about offering some classes I have written for a price, not free as I do need to eat, pay my bills and live. But I have little or no knowledge about the developer market that seems very different from the consumer or companies ones.
I look quite often Unity3d, in particular their market section were developers offers addons and complete kits for developing your game. Support and documentation are really valuable when customers write a review of an addon, and in most cases mid prices ones gets better review and sales than free or really high ones.
Don’t know if there are some personal reasons between you for this sale war about your addons, neither. But this really hurst in my opinion the poor Xojo addon market. We need more free/paid solutions for a RAD programming environment, where time is money.
@Michel Bujardet ,
I can feel your pain. As I heard your original price plans I thoguht wow, that’s a more than fair price for such an tool. I gladly read the offer on your web site yesterday and was repeately positive surprised by your offer. I slept a night and thought about it and purchased RubberViews today.
I hope others will follow, and buy your software as well, to support you in your further development work. We all have to earn money for our good work.
I also bought software from “You-Know-Who” longer time ago, but have made bad experience with his support and behaviour. Since then I decided to never buy software their again.
Michel you are not alone here with your feelings about that.
I don’t recall ever having an issue with that guy before.
Don’t worry, I will not let users down. RubberViews is not going away. At least, it will remain supported and potentially much more powerful than a poor rough edged freebie.
I appreciate your support, and will do my best to keep RubberViews up to your expectations.
That sucks. I thought about offering a solution based on my interaction with James Redway, but when you showed such interest in producing, marketing and supporting your product, I intentionally backed off. Hopefully, the market will decide in your favor.
Quite frankly considering history and reputation of both parties, RubberViews is the only one that I would consider viable even without the recently displayed behavior.
Stick it out. You are the one with the reputation of integrity to succeed.
[quote][/quote][quote=181550:@Michel Bujardet]I do not intend to go freeware. And have no plans to abandon the product either. People have suffered enough when Elastic Window was pulled on them.
I appreciate your support.[/quote]
I haven’t purchased RubberViews yet - but I plan to! I don’t like throwing money away but I think you should stop the 70% off sale. The regular price is more than honest and fair for a lifetime license! Forget what the “competition” is trying to do and make sure that you are compensated enough to feel that the effort to develop and support is worth it.
I agree with this. The regulars here know who’s reliable and will stick to someone with a reputation. Those that look at both, and pick the one with the lower price tag will be kicking themselves when said developer goes MIA for months on end.
[quote=181539:@Michel Bujardet]
I need to share my horror, faced with the most brutal attack on intellectual property, and the most dispeakable contempt for other developers.[/quote]
How is this an attack on IP? You yourself had made a copy of the idea.
Yet your whole complaint is about pricing and money?
Somebody is stealing your lunch. That is business.
[quote=181539:@Michel Bujardet]
In 30 years or so in this industry, I have seen my content of loonies. But not quite like this yet.[/quote]
That is very insulting.
And so is that.
I for one am grateful that a developer is going to release something on the “donate what you feel it is worth” basis. Not all of us make a living from what we develop. I program as a hobby, and can’t afford some of the crazy prices asked for add-ons of one form or another.
That said, if your product is better than the competition, and actually works ( unlike so much RB/Xojo stuff out there ), and you support it, you will make your pennies.
