NSSharingServices completely removed from 32-Bit on 10.10

[quote=133575:@Robert Schofield][CryptoSwift]

Has MD5 in Swift[/quote]
That’s a third party framework (not just some code you copy and paste, you need to include the framework in your application), which wasn’t available when Swift was announced. One of the things I really appreciated about Objective-C was the lack of need for third party libraries and frameworks (however I realized this might just be my limited experience with Objective-C, but to run into the need for a ‘plugin’ on the first day, was not a promising sign for me).

To me, Swift is a lot like Xojo and no offense to Xojo, but I don’t see that as being an advantage over Xojo.

However if Apple remove more 32-Bit libraries before Xojo is 64-Bit, Swift does then have an advantage, at the expense of Windows, Linux & web compiling. (which I’ve just started to get into web development).

Xojoscript plays an important role in my seminar management system and xojoScript for me is worth gold. Plus to use the same Language and IDE to create web apps to run on a Linux server, this makes it in-replaceable for me. I don’t see how Swift could replace this.

I had a look at Xamarin very carefully, especially the Xamarin Forms. First, one big thumb up for Xojo. They let you run their IDE without the need a licence. On Xamarin, it was impossible to run any examples without a licence because the demo version limits the size of the app which every example exceeded all the time. So, I took a licence and Xamarin Forms is not ready for big apps. It is nice to use for quick apps, but porting a big app is not possible. So, I am waiting for Xojo iOS. It has to be very good. If it is average, I will switch to Xamarin and use its full power (not the Xamarin.Forms), especially Xamarin is now 64 bits).

I really hope I won’t have to do that.

I have no intention to drop Xojo and use another language for developing my Apps as I know Xojo well and 64 Bit is in the works. If there is some way of using a 64 Bit API like Christian is trying is what I need. But having examined all Swift, Xamarin, Python etc… I feel much more confortable using Xojo than anything else.

I simply haven’t found yet any real competitor to Xojo in terms of real productivity. In my case I won’t leave Xojo ever. At the end I know I will benefit for all the excellent job Xojo engineers are putting in the new Xojo.

If Xojo, Inc were not working on 64 Bit, well, that will change my mind, but now I know much better what Xojo Engineers are capable and I am really impressed. Not to mention that I can ask a question and get a response directly from an engineer… that is priceless.

I blame Apple for their erratic policy ( deprecating stuff w/o notice, Quicktime, NSSharingService) but not Xojo as they have no magic ball for knowing the future.

[quote=133576:@Sam Rowlands]That’s a third party framework (not just some code you copy and paste, you need to include the framework in your application), which wasn’t available when Swift was announced. One of the things I really appreciated about Objective-C was the lack of need for third party libraries and frameworks (however I realized this might just be my limited experience with Objective-C, but to run into the need for a ‘plugin’ on the first day, was not a promising sign for me).

To me, Swift is a lot like Xojo and no offense to Xojo, but I don’t see that as being an advantage over Xojo.

However if Apple remove more 32-Bit libraries before Xojo is 64-Bit, Swift does then have an advantage, at the expense of Windows, Linux & web compiling. (which I’ve just started to get into web development).[/quote]

Its you limited experience with Objective-C … see , which has thousands of libraries available for Objective-C , and is working on adding Swift support.

+1 ten times over !

I love it when people come over here teaching us mere mortals the beauties of their esoteric languages. I am not entirely clueless about Objective-C, C## or even Swift. If I really really had no other option I could indeed force myself into using what appears to be fine tools indeed. I am even regularly exposed to Objective-C each time I consult the ADL to build Mac declares, and to C## when I read function definitions in Msdn.

The issue is extremely simple : after some 30 years programming in QuickBasic then Visual Basic then RB and today Xojo, I can wrap anything with a minimum effort and maximum efficiency. If I was to switch to even Swift (I read the entire introduction to it, seems fairly simple), I would have to spend a considerable amount of time making sure of the syntax for every new line of code, get familiar with the framework, learn about available libraries, and so on, and so on. Sam described it very well.

Am not going anywhere. No problem going VB or B4A which are very close relatives, but not a completely alien language.

Xojo has access to 32 bit libraries, you can create your own in C++ or use meta languages that cross compile to C++ and Objective C and integrate in Xojo. I have been involved in programming games with a known studio and our engine was a mixture of C++, Java, LUA/Python, and Xojo! Most of the internal tools were developed in less time that any other programming language (kind of betting who will end faster) with RealStudio at that time.

I bet it will take more time to begin learning a new language, community, classes, tutorials than Xojo to release 64 bit ( just guessing here, no hidden clues). Not to mention the vast amount of proven code I can reuse…

And Xojo itself as a language is easy to read! Is Swift cross platform? Objetive C?

I don’t think anyone is “coming over to teach” or preach other languages. For whatever it’s worth, I know Sam for a few years now and have high respects for him and his wife. I consider him a friend and I was simply nudging him/letting him know that the learning curve for developing with “native” Apple tools/technologies is much easier now (since he expressed interest in Swift but was a bit unsure). Although I rarely participate on this forum anymore due to personal reasons, I still use Xojo and older REALSoftware versions often for older projects and have nothing against the tools themselves.

Koua - maybe that would have been better served as a private message. It sort of did feel like a nod to Swift over Xojo and I can understand Michel’s response.

It may have sounded like it, but I was not attacking you specifically. I have read very carefully the Swift ebook from Apple, and admit that the language appears way friendlier than Objective-C ever was.

I appreciate very much Sam too, who has taken the time a while ago to explain in detail to me how to implement the Cocoa system calls in Xojo. And I am extremely grateful.

Understandably, you offer him advice about tools you visibly master, and try to guide him to the best possible course to use the 64 bit framework. That is quite nice of yours.

My beef is with some typical posts appearing regularly in this forum where the author feels obligated, usually for egotistic reasons, to claim superiority of C versus Xojo in rather contemptuous ways, as if somehow people who program in Basic where a retarded crowd. I tried to explain how some people like me, who have seen all things microcomputing birth in the late seventies, chose Basic as a programming language, and have to this day largely proven the validity of that culture. And when I say culture, I mean it the same way as I would be prepared to fiercely defend French as more than a pleasant curiosity for blasé visitors to the Paris indigenes. Xojo is a respectable and powerful language that has nothing to envy to C, and I do not think we need lessons from usually much younger people who better remember teaching grand mother to suck eggs is extremely bad mannered and stupid.

I may yet dabble in Swift if I get some new project that seems adequate for it. Otherwise, my existing code is too precious to squander it on a trendy whim.

I agree. In hindsight, I should have done that and going forward will do so. I forgot how passionately Xojo users can be (I, myself, included). :wink:

No need to explain. I just wanted to make sure people understand that I was simply trying to “nudge” a friend along as I do consider knowing Swift/Xcode a very good investment, especially since most of his software is Mac based. I should have explained my “endorsement” a little better or do what Tim has suggested. But thanks for the response.

[quote=133680:@Michel Bujardet]It may have sounded like it, but I was not attacking you specifically. I have read very carefully the Swift ebook from Apple, and admit that the language appears way friendlier than Objective-C ever was.

I appreciate very much Sam too, who has taken the time a while ago to explain in detail to me how to implement the Cocoa system calls in Xojo. And I am extremely grateful.

Understandably, you offer him advice about tools you visibly master, and try to guide him to the best possible course to use the 64 bit framework. That is quite nice of yours.

My beef is with some typical posts appearing regularly in this forum where the author feels obligated, usually for egotistic reasons, to claim superiority of C versus Xojo in rather contemptuous ways, as if somehow people who program in Basic where a retarded crowd. I tried to explain how some people like me, who have seen all things microcomputing birth in the late seventies, chose Basic as a programming language, and have to this day largely proven the validity of that culture. And when I say culture, I mean it the same way as I would be prepared to fiercely defend French as more than a pleasant curiosity for blasé visitors to the Paris indigenes. Xojo is a respectable and powerful language that has nothing to envy to C, and I do not think we need lessons from usually much younger people who better remember teaching grand mother to suck eggs is extremely bad mannered and stupid.

I may yet dabble in Swift if I get some new project that seems adequate for it. Otherwise, my existing code is too precious to squander it on a trendy whim.[/quote]

There’s nothing inherently better about most languages unless they provide parallelism or something as a first class citizen.

I find it is still very helpful to stay on top of new technologies just for the sake of new ideas. My Xojo coding gets better as I build Xamarin apps for instance. That kind of thing is hard to describe.

All that aside I think Xojo is the best total solution in a self contained box that there is. The 0-60 to an app that you can achieve with Xojo on several different platforms makes it super powerful and underrated. The fact that architectures are moving faster than Xojo is not a surprise. Then again if Xojo chased every tech fad they also may make equally limited progress on the things that matter and lots of progress on things that don’t. If I’m ever upset or disappointed in Xojo its because I want more from it, not because I want to dial it back.

Sorry
Not trying to write UI code in Erlang - cool as that language is :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=133700:@Norman Palardy]Sorry
Not trying to write UI code in Erlang - cool as that language is :P[/quote]
I thought being forced to learn Eiffel in college was bad, but then you mentioned Erlang… sigh

Bow @ Norman

I’m going to be the odd one out here as I’m actually happy, Koua made a public comment. The reason being, IMHO it opened a friendly discussion. As far as I could tell, there was no lambasting of Xojo, this time around we can all see that it’s Apple who’s removed this library without warning. I find myself spending way too much time playing catch up with Apple.

Koua’s point is spot on. I am a Mac developer, and had I chosen back in 1999 to start using Objective-C (when I had the chance, having access to Rhapsody) I would be in a very different position now. I would have been coding in Cocoa many years ago, the transition to Intel, would have been a simply adjustment in Xcode, moving to 64-Bit could have happened many years ago, again with a simple option in the Apple IDE. Not to mention that Apple have streamlined the entire App Store process in Xcode.

However I didn’t make that transition, I’ve made some money out of doing x-plat contract work, which wouldn’t have been possible without Xojo. We’d have never earned so much developing games in '06, if it were not for being able to compile for Mac & Windows. Today, I wouldn’t be able to do x-plat work, nor would I easily be able to web services using a language I know.

What I can say without a doubt, that Xojo is the BEST x-plat development tool out there, I’ve used the main competitors (except Xarmin, but as practically have to re-write your app for the Mac, I don’t really call that x-plat). I also support Xojo’s competitors users when they want to submit to the App Store, because App Wrapper is also the tool that they use. Xojo build the best quality Mac apps outside of Xcode (with Xcode you can still build shitty apps btw).

I realize that some of Xojo’s competition (I don’t really consider Xcode competition) already have 64-Bit and iOS. The reason they’ve got there first is IMHO, they’re runtime languages (like Android), so all the vendor needs to do is to port their runtime encapsulation application to that platform and viola. Xojo is compiled, which is why it takes longer for Xojo to support more languages. The #1 reason for me, is the use of declares (which are not supported in Xojo’s competition). If I couldn’t do what I do in Xojo, I would be looking for alternatives, and I would be doing what Koua suggested.

Which brings me to today, there are some things which can no longer be done in Xojo. It’s not Xojo’s fault, it’s Apple removing 32-Bit Cocoa frameworks (while still fixing bugs in 32-Bit carbon!). I don’t blame Xojo for this, however if Apple continue down this route before Xojo is ready, I may have to consider my chosen path. I need to sell apps, I need happy customers. Apple is going to give me frustrated customers, I’m going to lose revenue, I will have to adapt to survive. Will the lack of NSSharingServices kill me, no, but what else is now missing, that I either rely on will use heavily? If they dropped Core Image 32-Bit, I will have no choice as that’s key to all my apps (it’s even used in App Wrapper!).

I think as long as Apple does not remove more 32 bit stuff from 10.10 you will be OK…

I also think we can count on Xojo to deliver reasonably solid 64 bit support before Apple releases 10.11… Quite frankly that is because Xojo Inc likely would be in for a world of hurt if they don’t, and I suspect they realize that.

  • Karen

[quote=133713:@Karen Atkocius]I think as long as Apple does not remove more 32 bit stuff from 10.10 you will be OK…

I also think we can count on Xojo to deliver reasonably solid 64 bit support before Apple releases 10.11… Quite frankly that is because Xojo Inc likely would be in for a world of hurt if they don’t, and I suspect they realize that.

  • Karen[/quote]
    That’s the problem, they removed or disabled an entire framework for 32-Bit, it’s now only available to 64-Bit apps. It didn’t work correctly with DP3, so I logged it as a bug, it never worked until GM, where they removed it!

[quote=133709:@Sam Rowlands]I’m going to be the odd one out here as I’m actually happy, Koua made a public comment. The reason being, IMHO it opened a friendly discussion. As far as I could tell, there was no lambasting of Xojo, this time around we can all see that it’s Apple who’s removed this library without warning. I find myself spending way too much time playing catch up with Apple.

Koua’s point is spot on. I am a Mac developer, and had I chosen back in 1999 to start using Objective-C (when I had the chance, having access to Rhapsody) I would be in a very different position now. I would have been coding in Cocoa many years ago, the transition to Intel, would have been a simply adjustment in Xcode, moving to 64-Bit could have happened many years ago, again with a simple option in the Apple IDE. Not to mention that Apple have streamlined the entire App Store process in Xcode.
[/quote]
Don’t forget that Apple has also had bug warts & foibles on Xcode along the way
From the outside of ANY tool set it all looks rosy & smiley
Then you use it and find out there’s this whole underbelly where you just want to rip someones lungs out
Xcode has its share - really.
Ask Joe Ranieri for his thoughts about Xcode sometimes (although Xcode 6 has gotten a lot better)
Dont mention VS though :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=133715:@Norman Palardy]Don’t forget that Apple has also had bug warts & foibles on Xcode along the way
From the outside of ANY tool set it all looks rosy & smiley
Then you use it and find out there’s this whole underbelly where you just want to rip someones lungs out
Xcode has its share - really.
Ask Joe Ranieri for his thoughts about Xcode sometimes (although Xcode 6 has gotten a lot better)
Don’t mention VS though :P[/quote]
I wasn’t saying Xcode is better than Xojo, there are things I prefer about it and yes things I dislike greatly! My point was, had I learned Objective-C all those years ago (heck I could have started when I was given the opportunity to buy a NeXT machine in '96, I didn’t have enough cash for it). These ‘transitions’ wouldn’t have been so hard, or taken so long. I’ve also tried to point out the things that I wouldn’t have been able to do, if I had gone Obj-C in those days.