Microsoft open sources .NET and makes it cross-platform

Microsoft open sources .NET and makes it cross-platform - now does OS X, Linux, iOS, Android and Windows

[I realize that this post might fall afoul of Xojo “no posts about competitors” rule but I’d argue that, in this case, there are implications for all developers, including Xojo ones]

http://news.microsoft.com/2014/11/12/microsoft-takes-net-open-source-and-cross-platform-adds-new-development-capabilities-with-visual-studio-2015-net-2015-and-visual-studio-online/

I saw that same article and wondered what the implications would be for Xojo & their users…

Where does Xojo see itself with this? Maybe the cost of .NET is too high for most or maybe it is a real threat to their business model, who knows, but definitely an interesting discussion…

this is .NET without GUI as far as i read…

From the announcement itself
Microsoft is providing the full .NET server stack

A strong, open source, cross-platform CLR opens significant new options for building large server-based systems,” said Brian McCallister,

[quote=142974:@Norman Palardy]From the announcement itself
Microsoft is providing the full .NET server stack …

[/quote]

That was only part of it…

See:
http://www.visualstudio.com/news/vs2013-community-vs

I post something like this and gets deleted and this stays up?

Talk about biased!

[quote=142974:@Norman Palardy]From the announcement itself
Microsoft is providing the full .NET server stack

A strong, open source, cross-platform CLR opens significant new options for building large server-based systems,” said Brian McCallister,[/quote]
Running cross-platform ASP.Net web and cloud apps is a pretty big deal, if you ask me. It’s also a further open-source effort from Microsoft to add to its open-sourcing earlier this year. They’re on a path here for further open-sourcing which may well lead to client-side .NET being open-sourced and maybe even Windows itself some day.

In any case, I thought it was possibly relevant to Xojo devs and not necessarily disadvantageous from Xojo Inc’s point of view.

[quote=142975:@Karen Atkocius]That was only part of it…

See:
http://www.visualstudio.com/news/vs2013-community-vs[/quote]

its the server side stack … not all the UI code

[quote=142977:@Gavin Smith]Running cross-platform ASP.Net web and cloud apps is a pretty big deal, if you ask me. It’s also a further open-source effort from Microsoft to add to its open-sourcing earlier this year. They’re on a path here for further open-sourcing which may well lead to client-side .NET being open-sourced and maybe even Windows itself some day.
[/quote]
Windows being open sourced sort of kills their business model in many ways.

[quote=142976:@Shane Gibbs]I post something like this and gets deleted and this stays up?
[/quote]
I posted why your post was removed

So does offering a fully functional Visual Studio for free.

You mean this isn’t promoting .NET? -_-

I’m not sure what your purpose or point is beyond trying to antagonize staff and forum members

Why do you have this hard-on bias against me? If you don’t like me that much then why don’t you use your ignore feature that you touted so much a while back?

I would love to know how I allegedly “antagonize staff and forum members”.

I’ll give it a shot. Because it aggravates the hell out of me as a forum user to see someone come on here and repeatedly beat up on the product I use and the Dev team that supports it. You never have anything constructive to say. Always negative, always complaining about how the Xojo product / team is not measuring up to your perceptions of where it should be. Gets old and doesn’t help move anything forward. I really have no idea why you come here, I don’t see how this product is ever going to meet to needs or wishes. I don’t disagree with some of what you say, it does seem like it takes quite a while to get big projects done. But there are ways to make those points and definitely ways not to.

If you want to use Xojo and be a constructive member of the community, I am sure the members here would just wipe the slate clean. But if not, don’t you think it is best for all (yourself included) to just move along? Come on, Shane, get with the program.

We have been asked not to put forum members on ignore - thats why.

I don’t like or hate YOU - can’t say I’ve ever met you.
What I do dislike is the “shane gibbs” personality that posts as many negative things and that seems to dislike the product and the company and its policies yet persists in hanging around and saying how much he dislikes it.

We get it. You disagree with how Xojo Inc runs IT’S business, product development and forums. But the point is they ARE Xojo Inc’s - not yours. If you want things to run a certain way then run YOUR company the way you want and let us run ours our way.

You’re pissed off at us because we don’t support open source - but what you ask for runs completely counter to our business model. We sell a product to earn money to pay people to write that product and so the merry circle of life goes.

But you hang around & voice your displeasure with us at nearly every opportunity.
That makes no sense to me.

If you think other things are better suited to what you want to do then great - go use em have at it.

But why hang around here just to show people how pissed off you are ?

[quote=142990:@Shane Gibbs]
I would love to know how I allegedly “antagonize staff and forum members”.[/quote]
Scroll back through your own history
You’ve complained about how we run our forums. Yes. Our forums.
We pay for the servers that run them.
They are our “property” so yes we get to say how people can and cannot use them.
Same as any place where if you’re behaving in a manner they dislike, say you’re throwing stuff at other patrons in a movie theatre, they might just ask you to leave (although the other patrons might just beat you first).

In the thread about what version of OS X would be required you asked about why we don’t support open source & i gave you a very short version of “we sell a product to earn money to pay people to build that product”. My answer was deemed “pathetic”.
A couple posts later Gavin gave the answer as a full sentence and you thanked him for it.
I get annoyed when my answers to you are deemed pathetic, excuses etc. And its frequent.

Several times you’ve ranted at us, me specifically, about how you want us to support “open source”.
Hows that fit into our business model ?
Give away an IDE that can do anything and make it so large teams need a single build license ?
Hows that help our sales ?
Oh I know you’ll say “well it gets used more widely and so people use it and that helps sales because eventually they want to build”. Maybe. And that maybe is so far out in the future as to not be relevant - if it ever happens at all.
That runs right up with “linux sales” which still comprise a tiny fraction of overall sales despite “Linux going to take over the world” for the last 15+ years (isn’t it the year of the linux desktop yet again?)

I know the first day we talked about the revised licensing where the IDE would be free to use but you needed a license to build we had several current customers immediately say “Oh goodie I can outfit all my devs with the free version and have just one build master and cut my costs by 90%”. Yeah … no. Do that Xojo Inc dies & the product with it.

So “supporting open source” while a decent goal (I have no personal issue with it) has almost no viable business model which would allow us to move to that and simply doing it would probably kill the company because revenue would drop off a cliff.

So I’ll put it to you.
Rather than just rant and complain about how we don’t support open source put together something like a plan that would actually show HOW we could get from where we are now to where you think we should be that doesn’t drive revenues to 0 and MAYBE you’d be listened to. No pipe dreams “maybe if you did then maybe this would happen & …” A real concrete business plan on how to do that. Thats more likely to convince people than any rants on the forums.

Does that somehow help on feedback case 28733 (Windows OS Win32 to .NET Backend Change)?

Unlikely as what we’re more interested in is the UI layer on .Net for MS platforms (and who knows if they actually make it cross platform …)
.Net has some things in in that seem like they could make a lot of issues that Win32 have go away (like double buffering much like OS X does and a more modern compositing engine for UI) And it has a reasonably rich UI control set unlike Win32.
However - we’ve NOT invested a lot of time into looking into .Net for a new framework. So its not 100% clear what if any issues there may be and exactly how practical it is or isn’t.

We do need to get some other big items off the list before we can realistically start to do anything.
Ant that point we’ll have a much better idea of how feasible things really are as far as .Net and what we can / can’t do

Desktops? How quaint.

First thing you should know is: I am a former .NET guy, switched to Mac/ Realbasic completly in 2007 due frustration of MSDN membership prices and many .NET framework changes, each time producing a lot of additional work in my projects.

It’s an interesting move by Microsoft now but it’s not unexpected or revolutionary either. They have co-operated a lot with Mono and Novell before. And to me it is an attempt to refocus on Developers and to follow the “productive” mantra CEO Nadella explained in Berlin lately. In his point of view the Microsoft Ecosystem should become the “productive one” between Apple and Google.

Does it impact to Xojo? I don’t think so. To me one of Xojos’ key-feature is its easy redistribution without any dependency to Runtimes or Middleware. I can even redistribute Web Apps with their own Webserver what is quite enough and easy to run for small intranets. Same with Desktop Executables.

Let’s talk about rapid Application Development. Many clients ask me to fix large, failed .NET Projects where they tried to solve a small problem with an huge, oversized .NET solution. In most cases my regular answer is to get rid of the .NET bloatware full of bugs (the more/bigger the buggier) serving a small but working Xojo alternative.

Often one of the very first questions is “how many developers worked on this” or “how long took you to do this”… they do not believe me when I smile back, tellign them it was just me and it just took a couple of days.

What I wanted to say is: Xojo has far more and great Rapid Application Development Features than .NET and so forth even an open sourced and free .NET won’t have any impact to me and my work.

I’m following their moves. Java keeps growing and python is already huge on the server side, and they made this move in part because they lost all the traction on that part. Linux servers are all around. They are stimulating the server stack part as a free open-sourced option to attract more users. The other side of the coin is that they will stimulate the use of their paid infrastructure services (Azure) to host much of those results as possible. That’s a migration of money capture from one point that is dying, to another one, expecting a long term and better result. As a desktop multi-platform tool, right now, they are not a direct Xojo competitor.

I welcome Microsoft’s plans. Competition is always good for all customers. Mono is an interesting platform, it gets more attention now that corporate like Xamarin use it for their product.