Xamarin being ridiculously slow and buggy does not justify squelching discussion about Xojo possible improvements. Precisely because most of us are using primarily Xojo and enjoy it very much does not absolve it of defects and failings.
If nobody tells the king, he will never know he is naked. That maybe already the case for Xamarin, which celebrity apparently masks very real issues.
Who loves chastises well. Xojo is already great, it could be fantastic if certain things were taken care of.
That’s not true at all.
Where people talk about ‘Cross Platform’, it’s often about the development environment and the same underlying programming language.
Not about the codebase.
Xojo is Cross Platform in the sense that I can compile/build the same codebase for OSX, Windows and Linux.
With Xamarin/Mono .Net 5 etc, you can share much of your application code across platforms but the same codebase will not compile for the different platforms. For each platform, there is platform specific code. Maybe you can get away with console Apps but at least for the UI parts, things are completely different.
To be fair, that is also the case in Xojo between Desktop/Web/iOS. And for iOS, because it does not directly support the classic framework, even logic often requires extensive rewriting.
+1
Yes, and small/simple projects are about the same in compile time compared to Xojo doing 64bit.
You are right and I think that’s a mistake of Xojo.
One of Xojo’s main strength is the Cross Platform -part where the same codebase can be compiled for different platforms.
Right now, Xojo is focussed everywhere. Too many platforms and different frameworks. And what’s next? Android? Apple Watch? Apple TV? Raspberr… oh wait.
If you want to be able to do everything, you’ll never be the best in something.
Xojo is great with being Windows/OSX/Linux Cross Platform. If they would put all their energy in making that superb, Xojo has a unique position.
Windows and Linux could use a lot more attention. Feedback is filled with bugs and feature requests to make OSX, Windows & Linux support better. But there is no time because they’re scattered all over the place.
Just my opinion. I’ll hush now. 
They are doing it again. Just wait to see what’s going to happen.
This x 1,000. They’re spread too thin.
The money, for the developer, is in the ability to develop business apps more quickly than other options. This translates to higher value customers for Xojo.
Mobile apps are saturated market with numerous development tools. Raspberry? Cool but its a hobbyist market which are always looking the absolute cheapest tool to get the job done. I think Xojo’s goal was to stimulate the hobbyist market to develop long time users but that is an expensive proposition and only a fraction of hobbyists turn out to be long term high value ($$$) customers. When you specifically market to that crowd, potential business users come to their site, research it and write it off as a toy. This is a marketing deficiency within Xojo. I am a big supporter of their product and will continue to do so - it’s good, but there is a disconnect between the product and the market perception of their product. In my company I get to make the decision on what tools to uses - I choose Xojo. But in contrast I hear time and time again where somebody tries to “pitch” xojo and it just gets written of as a hobbyist tool.
Rebrand the language, banish anything related to “basic” - call it xocode or some other term that is more suitable. Raise prices for pro development tools (Yes, I’ll pay more). More case studies on business app development. Shore up the IDE and other lingering pain points. Stop developing new platforms - was Raspberry really necessary? It’s just too many platforms for their resources and results in many mediocre tools instead of a few great tools.
Anyway, that’s my .02 cents.
A tool like Xojo will lose it’s attraction to people like me if it gets too expensive …
I have used Xojo (And RB and RS) for a fair number of projects at work over the last 14 or so years. Before that I did teh same using other tools that I owned or were freely available to anyone at work.
Some were for my own use, but most were for use by others in my department and in some cases for use by people in other departments.
But coding has never been in my job description. I initiated all those projects on my own without employer sanction or support because I saw things that could be done and because I am a “hobbyist”. But I doubt I would be a hobbyist if I was not doing projects for work… (and yes IT departments tend not to like people like me )
I think people like me are a big reason VB got popular and I would be surprised if Xojo does not have a lot of users like me… I picked Xojo not only because of ease of use but also because I have always been in mixed Mac and PC environments at work.
Yes we are price sensitive because we pay for our own tools but don’t (usually) generate income from them, but we do need most of the “Pro” capabilities. If Xojo prices got too high we would migrate to cheaper or free tools or stop coding altogether.
For Xojo the question is which market do they think will bring them the best return. I am sure there are a more people like me than those that make their living with Xojo…
They are starting to push the price to uncomfortable levels for people like me already… The question is, if they keep trying to go upscale what will it do to their total revenues?
I don’t know… but I don’t think it is a sure bet that it will be better for them.
That was probably the major intent behind going “Xojo” and making anything quoted “basic” disappear.
I can’t say about Xojo; but I have it on good authority that a future version of Swift will build universal applications that will work across OS X, iOS & tvOS. I can’t yet determine if each target will get it’s own interface of if Mac apps will end up looking large huge iOS apps. Judging by Apple’s attitude at the moment. I suspect the later.
Universal Binaries will tide us over until Apple’s Ax chips are suitable for the desktop.
Pricing things just right is an art.
You price it too low and you attract the wrong kind of audience; We’ve witnessed this time and time again with our apps; whenever they’re on discount, you end up with lots and lots of support from people, who often don’t really know how to use a computer.
You price it too high and you reduce your audience, maybe by too much.
Look at Adobe Photoshop, I recall when it $99. I know Photoshop and can accomplish what I want in Photoshop (I own Pixelmator, but find it far too limited, since 1.0 I send them requests for functionality that would turn it into a design tool, rather than a toy). Then in the last 10 years, they cranked up the price every year, to the point where Photoshop cost over $1,000 (here in Taiwan, where Adobe added extra cracker tax). When I tried to buy a copy of PS here in Taiwan, the Apple Store clerk called me crazy and recommend a place to get the cracked version.
They then moved to subscription, at first it wasn’t any better, but then they dropped to $10 (usd) a month and that’s something I’m happy to pay. Although I do wish that they’d take a one time fee, rather than charging my credit card once a month and then mailing me a receipt.
I can concur, I know a great deal of mobile developers, who are simply not making enough money any more. I also see it with the Desktop market, especially the Photo Editing field. It’s like everyone and their dog has developed a photo editor and is selling it for a dollar.
Sales are so weak of our Photo apps, that if the next few projects don’t breath some life into; we’re abandoning the photography industry.
As far as I can see there is no intention to stop the low end versions. And if you sell only one Mergeable Cell Listbox a year, it pays for it. You even have money left.
[quote=250018:@Sam Rowlands]You price it too low and you attract the wrong kind of audience; We’ve witnessed this time and time again with our apps; whenever they’re on discount, you end up with lots and lots of support from people, who often don’t really know how to use a computer.
[/quote]
I have half a dozen copycat challengers for Check Printer at $3.99 or less. My app is at $15.99 and sells just fine.
At one point, the issue for any software publisher is to be able to make a reasonable profit to live on his productions. The copycats need to sell 4 times more copies to make the same amount of gross.
I was taught many years ago that there are 5 different reasons a customer will buy a car : Security, Pride, Novelty/Technology, Comfort, Money, Sympathy.
Shortsighted marketers focus only on Money. That is ridiculous.
Another point of view is that I always regretted when I said yes to business propositions I did not like. I often made more money saying “No” than saying “Yes”.
I strongly believe that Xojo should NOT give way to the very vocal people who always cry foul at the slightest price increase. The very survival of the company is at stake, and its possibilities to grow, fix bugs and provide quality software.
I bought a Personal license back in 2002 for $99.99.
The inflation rate calculator at U.S. Inflation Rate Calculator- plus Several Other Inflation Calculators shows that if Xojo was to simply apply inflation rate, the price of the same would have to be $131.63.
Sorry, vocal hobbyists, I know you never want any price increase, but you cannot sink the boat we all are in. As a professional, I am even ready to pay MORE to see Xojo fare better.
From my point of view, the second part of the sentence is OK.
For the first part of the sentence about Raspberry Pi: we do not know what was the cost of this platform, the tie spent to develop it. It may be started by a Xojo developer own time for its own pleasure and at a moment, he talked to Geoff and we saw its appearance ?
I paid $99 for REALbasic 1.0 on its release date (was it 1998 ?). It had Java Compilation, but not yet Windows platform. But I was really happy with it (as far as I can recall )
Sometimes you come across as a nice and helpful person, at other times you are unbearably condescending and arrogant. Guess which one it is this time
If I would be interested in Xojo and read comments like yours I would leave again in a hurry and wonder where that “helpful community is that is so unlike other programming forums”. You don’t become more professional by denigrating others.
We all benefit from a larger user base even if some of them don’t pay anything.
Balancing the needs of the hobbyist and the professional is a challenge. I think hobbyists are more passionate about the product as a whole because it would be harder for them to switch to something else. Professionals are less tied to Xojo and the costs are less concerning so performance and stability is most important.
This is a good trade off of concerns. Many languages and tools wish to have as healthy a balance as Xojo.
[quote=250040:@Markus Winter][/quote]
Why so much hatred ? Are you the only one authorized to voice an opinion ? Arrogant, hey ?
Am I only good when I go out of my way to share, and worth shit when I say I would vote with my credit card to ensure Xojo’s future ? You have a very nice way of discouraging people indeed. If to ensure hobbyists success means spitting on professionals, this is both unfair, and not terribly bright.
I have no problem with you voicing your opinion. I do have a problem with you denigrating others. I didn’t accept it from Brad, I don’t accept it from you or anybody else either.
Maybe reread what you wrote. You might not have intended it to sound like it does, but it does not sound nice at all.
[quote=250052:@Markus Winter]I have no problem with you voicing your opinion. I do have a problem with you denigrating others. I didn’t accept it from Brad, I don’t accept it from you or anybody else either.
Maybe reread what you wrote. You might not have intended it to sound like it does, but it does not sound nice at all.[/quote]
I know you are particularly incisive when you don’t like an opinion and have a way to pick a fight.
I am not Brad, and I don’t remember you being granted here magistrate of opinions.
I wrote exactly that if prices were to follow inflation, lower end versions would be much more expensive. Now whether you like or not, Xojo has been incredibly kind in that respect. I do think prices too low would mean the end of the company. Is it really what you want ?
I also really think your constant aggressivity is out of place, abhorrent and uncivil. I will simply ignore you if you pursue that course.