Hey Xojo people : The logic that makes a developper or a team of developpers to switch from a mac OS to the next release is not the same than the one of a company that has many computers.
Changing an OS often involves to change other softwares or drivers, so it is rare that such on operation occurs.
We can’t tell our customers something like “Hey guys, please update your OS : it’s free !”
Some doesn’t know how to do that, some doesn’t have time to do that, some doesn’t want to do that and some have computers that don’t support the new release.
[quote=53719:@jean-yves pochez]10.7 was released in july 2011 so 2.5 years.
10.6 was released in august 2009
there are still 20% of mac users that uses 10.6 (recent internet browsers statistics)
so how can you get rid of 20% of potential customers ?
I simply cannot.[/quote]
We would love to be able to support all previous versions of an operating system in the latest version of Xojo but that’s not practical. To do that, we can’t move forward. Apple has new features and requirements we simply cannot support while supporting older versions of OS X. This is true on Windows and Linux as well though they do not tend to move forward at nearly the speed of OS X. According to Omnigroup, less than 20% of their customers are running 10.6. What is interesting, however, is that their stats have not been updated to include 10.9 so my guess is that the percentage of users running 10.6 is now closer to 10%.
Every time we increase the system requirements there are complaints. This is understandable. Every time Apple comes out with a new version of OS X, those that can’t run it because their hardware is too old complain. This too is understandable. But sometimes in order to move forward, you have to leave older technology behind.
sorry Geoff, it’s not a technology question: my computer is completely capable of running 10.9
I simply do not want because I maintain old softwares for long time customers.
as I’m ok to leave 10.5 because not much people still use it, I know a lot of people still using 10.6, me first.
I’m am not a fan but I understand a new software release for a twitter frontend for example that need 10.8 to start
I dont understand a new software for food recipes that absolutely need 10.8 to start : that’s nonh sense.
I still use an accounting software that works from 10.4 to 10.9. they “start to think” to leave the powerpc platform !
so that’s not impossible.
I’m not against technology forward, but for me “old” technology starts after 5 years, like the way apple deals with obsolete macs : they have 5 years of parts for their computers.
here we are talking of 4 years : 10.6 went out on august 2009
and it’s not hardware it’s software
that made me say : leaving 10.6 is really really too early for xojo.
by the way, I bought a xojo subscription plan, there are still 1.5 year to go. what will I do with it ?
I you had told us that xojo would need such a rapid development path, I would not have subscribed.
I LOVED realbasic, then realstudio because it was the only IDE that supported old systems. that’s not the case anymore.
one more thing :
I also paid the subscription plan for xojo hopping to program for iOS
I’ve been waiting for that for ? 3 or 4 years ? still nothing, and I won’t be able to do it.
I’m ok to move forward when there a significant changes in the OS. sorry to say there has not been much in 10.7 10.8 or 10.9
if the next OS has good things, I will be the first to use it. but there are a few, and a lot of bugs you are left with.
Here’s one thing you could do. I’ve got a 2011 MBP with 10.6.8 and I hate to upgrade that OS for many of your reasons. I run VMWare Fusion which lets me create a Virtual Machine running 10.8.5 and that is where I will end up using 2013r4 and above. I will leave 2013r3.3 on my physical machine running under 10.6.8.
no it seems that 10.9 is now 30% of macusers, but it took the parts of 10.7 and 10.8 which is quite normal.
10.6 is still at 20%, and was impacted only by 0.5% by 10.9.
10.6 to 10.7 is a big upgrade, because rosetta disapears and a lot of apps has to be replaced, sometimes there is simply no available replacement.
then 10.7 to 10.8 is a normal upgrade, as 10.7 is the messiest os I’ve ever seen from apple
10.8 is a good one, stabilizing a lot of 10.7 lacks
10.9 is too young, can read gmail accounts almost correctly only since yesterday …
I’m in apple business since 1980, technician and server certified (even 10.8 !), and part time developper.
Actually it will run Snow Leo, you just can’t install it from any of the DVDs . The late 2011 MBP needs 10.6.6 as the minimum system. The DVD you buy is 10.6.3 and will not install.
You can install (using another Mac) 10.6.3 on an externel HD or a USB stick, upgrade it to 10.6.8, start up from it and restore it onto your MBP.
I can only assume that there is no problem with doing so. When choosing the guest OS in Fusion, 10.7 and 10.8 are available options, so it must be legal. Just be sure to purchase a copy of the OS. You would also need Fusion v5 since the more recent v6 requires 10.7 as the minimum host OS.
I use Snow Leopard, a French expression to explain my feeling Hen reading Xojo won’t run on it “Cold Shower”.
I’m desappointed, but they are many applications now that I can’t update because I’ve an old system.
The problem is I pay Xojo for many months, I’ve one year left I think (I don’t remember and don’t want to search, the problem remains the same).
I don’t update because of Apple Policy. But I don’t blam Xojo.
[quote=53748:@jean-yves pochez]one more thing :
I also paid the subscription plan for xojo hopping to program for iOS
I’ve been waiting for that for ? 3 or 4 years ? still nothing, and I won’t be able to do it.
[/quote]
We’ve only been working on it very actively for about 18 months.
Its been desired for many wears - but desire & actual work on it are two very different things.
[quote=53748:@jean-yves pochez]I’m ok to move forward when there a significant changes in the OS. sorry to say there has not been much in 10.7 10.8 or 10.9
[/quote]
While 10.7, 10.8 and 10.9 may not have had lots of visible outward changes their underpinnings and the core OS is VERY different from 10.6 and earlier. We had to move off 10.6 mostly to make it so we could support Cocoa & OS X better in the long term. Apples newest tools don’t build for 10.6 or anything older.
We do our best to support older systems as long as we practically can.
We still support XP as MS has not made the kind of API changes at the core OS level that Apple has.
But XP will also one day drop off the supported list just as Windows 95, 98 and 2000 have.
[quote=53900:@Thomas ROBISSON]I use Snow Leopard, a French expression to explain my feeling Hen reading Xojo won’t run on it “Cold Shower”.
I’m desappointed, but they are many applications now that I can’t update because I’ve an old system.
The problem is I pay Xojo for many months, I’ve one year left I think (I don’t remember and don’t want to search, the problem remains the same).
I don’t update because of Apple Policy. But I don’t blam Xojo.[/quote]
well for me it’s not a cold shower, I won’t trust xojo inc anymore. I have been stolen from 1.5 year of subscription plan I will not use.
of course I will download the updates, but only play with them, I will not work with them.
I think now I’ve better go with xcode I left some times ago because they made us upgrade to often. realstudio was a real alternative for me, but now it is not. you dont have the right to leave a 4 years old OS.
I read the forum and the blog often, I did not notice any mention of 10.6 leaving.
I 've read a lot of usefull things, ( and useless) but nothing about 10.6 now I’m in front of the problem there’s nothing to hope again.
10.6 was sold until July 2011 when Lion was released… which means computers that were bought up to 2.5 years ago came with it… Where I work we have no IT department and people don’t upgrade their own machines. (heck most had never used Macs before working there)
Asking around at work it it looks like over half the Macs are running 10.6.8. … and I use Xojo mostly for in-house apps.
When I first knew they were dropping 10.6, I had not realized the magnitude of the issue for me.
That said I blame Apple not Xojo. This is one reason Macs will never be big in business settings.
This is very true, Xojo is really no different than us in that they have to react to what Apple and Microsoft do. In turn, we sometimes need to react to the reaction which Xojo needs to make.
Trust me - I’m not being paid for this, but a $60 license of VMWare Fusion makes most of this a non-issue. I’ve got one of those 2.5 year old Macs and I’m got VM’s for Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Win XP and Win 7.
I’ve still got plenty of months left on my Xojo licenses and do not feel like I’ve “thrown” money away. Any development that needs 2013r4 and above will just be done in my ML VM instead of on the physical machine.
the virtual machine for developing is ok, but the main problem is that I have to leave all the customers that are still under 10.6 and won’t upgrade until ?
I can develop on my physical machine (10.6.8) using 2013r3.3 or anything prior and support customers who are still running on 10.6.8 themselves.
I can develop on my ML VM using 2013r4 or greater and support those customers who have moved to 10.7+.
Depending on the features in my app, I can currently move the source code between development environments and compile for those two different audiences.
as I assume I wont be able to share a library between xojo 2013r4+ under VM and xojo2013r3.3 - then no
as for me xojo is still a beta (I still use realstudio for work) then no
but it seems I will have to be satisfied with that ?
I worked a loooooong time with realbasic 5.5 when the 2005+ version was not finished, so I will do the same now
may be in 3 or 4 years I’ll upgrade again who knows.
[quote=53963:@Michael Bierly]I’m not understanding your situation.
I can develop on my physical machine (10.6.8) using 2013r3.3 or anything prior and support customers who are still running on 10.6.8 themselves.
I can develop on my ML VM using 2013r4 or greater and support those customers who have moved to 10.7+.
Depending on the features in my app, I can currently move the source code between development environments and compile for those two different audiences.
Won’t this setup address your needs?[/quote]
It’s not a matter of testing or just supporting old code. Any new app I write for work (unless I can get everybody to go to 10.9 - not likely) will need to run on 10.6…
So in that case the problem is one misses out on all the bug fixes and usability improvements (and goodness knowns the new IDE needs those) in new versions and/or potentially need to maintain multiple versions of the code.
My apps are deployed on both Macs and Windows which then are more asymmetric as the Windows side can use the new versions…
As I said I blame Apple not Xojo, but it is WAY too early to end support for 10.6.
With Apple doing more frequent OS updates, they really do need to revisit the policy of supporting only 2 old versions if they want to have credibility in the business world.
It should be time based for predictability and stability. A reasonable period would be for at least 4 years from when it was replaced… So IMO Apple (and thus Xojo) should have supported 10.6 at least until July 2015.
The problem here is that organizations/customers are using Apple machines like they are Windows machines. In the Apple ecosystem you are expected to stay reasonably current. If you do not wish or cannot upgrade your machines more often than every three years you should really be using a platform that is more backwards compatible like Windows.