Is learning Xojo Easy ?

Been 2 days since a question was posted. Hope the “Professionals” are back from the Conference taking over control of the forum from the “Amateurs”.

Not much has changed since Realbasic 5 eh ? Had the same experience when trying to learn Realbasic in 2003. The forum was equally unresponsive and unfriendly back then too… When name was changed to Xojo, thought it changed the entire experience… Guess its the same wine in a different bottle still.

The new incarnation of RealBasic Ecosystem seems to have changed with -

  • More programmers who failed in .NET moved over to Xojo ( I Heard it in a Xojo podcast. that they came to Xojo for fear of “plumbing” in .NET ! Whatever “.NET plumbing” that they referring to, God only knows…
  • The old RB forum got older and the RB enthusiasts grew cockier. Or may be its their teenage kids who are running the forum. And sure enough Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. And sure enough they still call themselves Friendly…
  • Nobody even bothers to write books for Xojo any more. Still being advertised as popular ??
    – Is popularity based on existing customer base or total trial downloads or some other statistic ?
    – A search on Amazon.com for Xojo showed: “Xojo protein supplements” and some old books on Realbasic ??

Though Xojo is all but kissed and advertised to be “Awesome and Friendlier than everrr…”,

  1. What do prospective customers get by purchasing Xojo ?
    • 90 day return guarantee, so all that the “support” needs to say ( just like back in 2003 ) is: "That can’t be done in Xojo, You can get your money back !! "
  2. Is Xojo made for people who hate .NET but still make a living from .NET ?
  3. Do the 90 day guarantee apply to the Xojo cloud too ? Is it like people pay and cross their fingers hoping you folks don’t get irritated and delete their files ?
  4. Is Xojo like the olympics, where when you want to Win, you just ban countries and people from asking questions ?

Given this community is one of the most helpful around and has been as long as I have been part (Since RB v3), i wonder why you have that chip on your shoulder…

in any case you now can do a time unlimited free trial of Xojo with the only major limitation is that you can’t create a standalone executable, (but ca run in the IDE)

Xojo can do most things but is not the best tool for all situations. Most who use it do so because they find they are often most productive with it.

And yes it is easy to learn, relatively speaking.

  • Karen

If you walk into a party with a surly attitude and an aggressive outlook you’re going to get a different reaction than if you come in with a smile and a spring in your step.

I’m guessing that’s the same wherever you are in the world.

Wow this guy is so sweet, and charming, it makes me hope he has lots of questions that I can help him with…

Or not.

Deepu, aa has been explained to you before… this is a VOLUNTEER organization, with skillsets across many discplines…
But coming on here and being a jerk because someone doesn’t jump when you beckon, will simply cause you to be ignored…

As I am going to be doing from this point forward

Call it a bad habit, but when people EXPECT me to be friendly and nice, I wind up being sordid and mean. Perhaps this reply will prove it.

Hey, don’t start out with a chip on your shoulder. That just guarantees the type of responses you’ll get. You know, this is just software. It’s nothing personal. You’re here to learn or contribute. If someone says something that bothers you, just ignore it. It’s not like we’re all trying to marry each other here.

As for .NET, well, REAL/Xojo has always meant to be a RAD tool and .NET has never been thought of that way. There’s no real comparison, except importantly that programmers - even experienced ones - want to cut down on the rebuilding of the house foundation all the time and what a good RAD tool to make it easier to generate apps. And Xojo, especially as a xplat tool, provides that, despite you having to use the BASIC language, which honestly isn’t any type of deal breaker.

Books? Like in the things made of paper? Paper computer books are mostly obsolete, especially in the context you are asking for. The minute it gets written, a new version makes it obsolete. And people don’t buy them, they find all the info they need via the Internet. You won’t find REAL/Xojo paper books, and that’s fine. Try the Xojo magazine, whatever it’s called. I hear that’s pretty good.

To your “is it easy” question: well, if you found it unacceptable in 2003, you won’t find it acceptable now. And don’t confuse the forum with the product - two totally different things. However…

I adopted REAL in 2001ish, and since it offered Mac programming, I lept at it but I struggled, but not my fault - the IDE/dev environment was good enough but really short of Visual Basic 5/6 which was wonderful. I got it at the right time, though I gasped through RB3 and RB4.0, but RB4.5 was very acceptable - yet I still had to adapt to it. RB5.5 was a little better. But you know, by 2004 it left me tired and I went back to Visual Basic, because I just wanted to get some work done!

Then later in 2005 I found RB2005, a complete redesign, and I fell for REAL again. That design really made it work, and over the next couple of years I worked out my present solution of C++ and REAL and left VB (reluctantly) behind and I use the xplat of REAL heavily. (RB2005 then morphed to REAL Studio, and I still use RS2011r3.)

I really like REAL - it works, crashes minimally. It has it’s little problems but I know what they are. The only important thing to me is I can get work done without driving me to insanity. With REAL, I can think about my work and completely forget about the IDE itself. And I can get to the end - make a compileable app and sell it and make money and feed my kids. I’m a happy man.

As for Xojo, I think it’s universally understood that it’s a bit of a learning curve if you are steeped in REAL. I’ve never heard someone PRECISELY say they like Xojo’s IDE better than REAL, but maybe I"m not listening. I’m not using Xojo yet - maybe the only one here now - but I’m ready over the next couple months to start using it as my primary IDE. What I’m glad about is that it’s had time to mature and I don’t have to deal with all the annoying initial crap.

But, back to you - just try it and shut up. As for “support” or “guarantee” - dude, Xojo is FREE. You can use it all you want, you just can’t compile. As for money-back guarantee, I don’t know hat that means, and besides, you do have to pay, which isn’t the way I’d like to try something out.

But, as you said, if you didn’t like it then - you won’t like it now. Unless you grew up since then.

Xojo is easy to get started with. You download it for your platform of choice, start a new project and hit Run. You have an app.

There is still a fairly steep learning curve as to the concepts of object oriented programming. The IDE abstracts it away a bit with the easy way it presents UI elements so you are not exposed to it as early as you might be in other languages. What I mean by that is while interacting with objects you don’t have to be familiar with the fact that they are objects. “Implicit instance” being on by default means you can just say “Window1.Visible = False” much as you would in procedural languages. You would not know at that point that Window1 is a Global implicit instance of type Window1. Nor would you care until it bit you in the butt later on.

Designing effective and modern user interfaces can take a lot of creative energy in Xojo.

Interacting with the latest and greatest protocols, databases, API’s, etc. requires you to write that code yourself. While the open source community around Xojo continues to grow it does not get widely developed features from other languages automatically. You have to build them yourself.

To be a great Xojo developer means you have spent a considerable amount of time practicing with it like any programming language. Once you reach a mature level of proficiency you can solve almost any problem.

[quote=290656:@Dave S]Wow this guy is so sweet, and charming, it makes me hope he has lots of questions that I can help him with…

Or not.

Deepu, aa has been explained to you before… this is a VOLUNTEER organization, with skillsets across many discplines…
But coming on here and being a ■■■■ because someone doesn’t jump when you beckon, will simply cause you to be ignored…

As I am going to be doing from this point forward[/quote]

Dave don’t let it get personal. The original poster is just stirring the pot a little because they are frustrated with the product. This is actually an opportunity to make a sale. The user is still engaged with the product and has hope it can solve their problems. However they are on the crux of leaving because they can’t find the answers to their questions. Better to stay disengaged if you do not have an answer to the question. If you do engage it would be helpful to point them in the right direction.

Deepu clearly has a broad understanding of the programming landscape. They would be useful to the community.

Hi Deepu,

all previous answers reflect (more or less) the core of your “question”.

I nearly forgot: I can testify that I get answers, sometimes precious answers from people in this forum. I can remember a simple tip to center vertically a given Row from a Listbox. I am happy everytime I use that feature.

Here is a different answer. In the conversation here , I gave a nearly “feel featured” answer I wrote especially for the circumstance (but it was not the awaited answer).

As already said: ask a simple question and you will probably get an answer.

About the conversation subject, my answer is: Yes. But, after some months, you may fall into an area where you may need a PlugIn, issue a feature request, whatever that can arise to any tool.

Welcome back to this community.

I don’t see any question which refers to observable, measurable facts. To me this looks rather like a rant to express frustration.

But I give it a try: To me it appeared as ‘easy’ to learn RB, aka Xojo. But then, it still was hard work to create a full blown application, so: ‘not easy’.

Here is a list of books that are with Xojo that are available at Xojo Library - this does not include the list of books available as RealStudio:

  1. Raspberry Pi 2B and 3B electronics
  2. Program HTML, CSS, and Javascript
  3. Begin Object Oriented Programming
  4. Program Excel 2016 on Windows
  5. Implement Win32 Declares with Xojo
  6. Begin JSON with Xojo Desktop
  7. Windows Registry
  8. Program Microsoft Word on Windows
  9. Program the Canvas Control (graphics and animation)
  10. XML with Xojo
  11. SQLite with Xojo
  12. PostgreSQL with Xojo
  13. Begin Programming Xojo Web

I might be missing some, and this is a good start…

Eugene is right: one have to add / talk about xDev Magazine available here .

+1 to that.

I recently had the misfortune of trying to try the ‘free’ offer of a basic Embarcadero Delphi.
I used to love Delphi, but didnt update after version 3
Tempted by the free intro version, I went through trying to download and install it.
What a mess.
I cant run an app yet, even ‘hello world’… and when I look at the prices of the ‘real thing’, I find myself wondering if the prices are in Rupees instead of Dollars… :slight_smile:

Whereas I’ve been happily using Xojo to write cross platform commercial apps, for years.
That makes me twice as productive as I would be if I were trying to do this using one tool each for Mac and Windows…

[quote]1. What do prospective customers get by purchasing Xojo ?

  • 90 day return guarantee, so all that the “support” needs to say ( just like back in 2003 ) is: "That can’t be done in Xojo, You can get your money back !! "[/quote]

Ask support@xojo.com

IMHO it is not made in regards to .NET at all. For the rest, you are the only one who can verify your personal ability to use Xojo. For me personally, I switch easily between the two.

[quote]3 - Do the 90 day guarantee apply to the Xojo cloud too ? Is it like people pay and cross their fingers hoping you folks don’t get irritated and delete their files ?
[/quote]
Ask support@xojo.com

Like shoes, any programming language is better tried on instead of talking. There is no better way than to download Xojo from xojo.com, install it and play. You should see in minutes if it is to your taste.

However, if you don’t trust Xojo Inc. to start with, better abstain. There are tons of other products around to try.

As you probably already know from making a living with .NET, best results are obtained in comfort rather than pain. So if you start with preconceptions and fear, you will only encounter issues.

BTW, why are you leaving .NET ? It is a very nice and powerful programming environment.

Hello,
I think for beginners in programming the Xojo IDE in combination with the Basic syntax are very easy to grasp. From time to time I write little programs together with my son (he is nearly 13 years old now, but we started when he was 10). Sometimes he writes very small apps all alone and I only need to help him when he gets stuck. With Xojo beginners can see the results of their work very fast, so they do not get frustrated or bored so easily.
Of course, developing complex applications requires to learn a lot of stuff - like with every other programming tool.

Quite Impressive responses reflecting the depth of civility and the knowledge of “programmers” to “developers” to “Professionals”.
But take no offense, this was just a social experiment in intolerance/penetration testing. Understanding if it is likely the community will create a hostage situation for a solution and demand a ransom. Only one professional recognized it ?

In the Analogy of David and Goliath: The Original intent was to communicate with the professional Goliath at the front end, but since the front end was turned towards a conference, naturally only the lowly backend was in service and sure enough David wanted to be the Star.

@Michel Bujardet : When you feel you are a hammer, everything around you is a nail ? Oh, you switch to .NET quickly ? Explains why you thought of me leaving programming in .NET :wink:

@Patrick Delaney : The original post was as polite as I could. Guess in your part of the world, its your constitutional right to make people feel un-invited at parties.

Its not the company or the language that I don’t trust, its the community.
After all you are all programmers and you know that your system will only get as good as the people running it. Xojo is the system and the community is the people running it. And this community has a majority with a tendency to create a hostage situation and demand a ransom.

What’s the “hostage situation” and “ransom” you speak of? This is a very open-ended analogy and I can’t imagine what you mean specifically. How would someone hold you hostage on a forum?

And is this “just a social experiment”. So there’s no actual question, you’re just trying to mess with us to see if our reaction matches your judgement? That’s trollish behavior.

I’m confused - doesn’t David defeat Goliath? Perhaps there’s a more approriate biblical story. I find Greek myths interesting, especially the one about Narcissus.

In any case, I’m certainly no professional programmer and have been pleasantly suprised by the information willingly provided by members (including professionals) on this forum considering my novice questions.

You reap what you sow :slight_smile:

@Will Shank
Much of xojo is undocumented.
The only suggestions for a new comer to learn xoxo is from the community.
Lets imagine they build a solution and get stuck, approach the community for directions and all they say is… I know how to fix it but I am not going to tell you anything because we don’t like you… Oh… that is not trying to mess with us to see if my reaction matches your judgement ?
For newcomers with no background in programming, that is a hostage situation.

Trolling ? Your freedom of speech, and everyone else is trolling ?
So you can do whatever you want, no one else can ?

@Deepu John
What are you trying to accomplish here? You want to learn Xojo or you want to see how the Xojo community behaves. If you want to learn Xojo then go through the documentation and example projects given by Xojo and then ask questions here. The community might help you with source code or lead you to some link which might help you in getting a solution. But if you are in the second category, this is NOT the place for you and please don’t waste the time of others.

Note : All peoples are different and you will get positive and negative answers. Please take the positive answers and move on.

[quote=290746:@Deepu John]Much of xojo is undocumented.
The only suggestions for a new comer to learn xoxo is from the community.
Lets imagine they build a solution and get stuck, approach the community for directions and all they say is… I know how to fix it but I am not going to tell you anything because we don’t like you… [/quote]

In general that has never been an issue in the community as far as I can see… That said someone who asks a lot of questions but obviously makes no effort to try and help themselves, may find after awhile the number of responses they get dwindle.

But to the larger implication here, remember end users (and even most of the Xojo engineers) posting here are not getting payed to answer questions, but do it to be helpful and foster community.

If someone is rude, impolite, demanding or overly argumentative (or playing mind games) why would people want to give such a person their time?

Both positively and negatively as they say, what goes around comes around. It’s human nature…

In my experience this community has been extremely helpful and giving. That is a big reason I’ve stayed with the product for a lot of years.

  • Karen