How can we help Xojo to eliminate bugs?

Thom, I’m wasn’t even referring to the IDE specifically. I’m mainly talking about routines that I would think are easily separated from the codebase. For example, I submitted a feedback case:

51795 - The RoundedRectangle dimensions are set incorrectly (too large) which causes the outer perimeter to be clipped.

Creating a working rounded rectangle isn’t exactly what defines Xojo in the marketplace as a unique and valuable product and so it isn’t likely that someone is interested in stealing that code. It is a fairly generic routine that is probably far removed from Xojo’s core and would be a good candidate for community review. That’s just one example, there are many more like it. I think Xojo is overlooking an opportunity to engage their user base in a meaningful way to help propel Xojo forward.

A bug in a basic data type SHOULD have been of the highest priority as soon as found, and fixed asap as a very high priority no matter what… If one can not rely on such basic functionality how can anyone rely on/feel confident using the tool for an important application?

That fact that it Xojo Inc did not do WHATEVER was needed to fix that ASAP, to me says their priorities need adjusting badly…

Yes many don’t use the currency type (and the includes me as I don’t use Xojo for financial calculations), but even so IMO that was far more important than API 2 or any individual platform, if only because of what it says about the tool to users both existing and potential.

To put it simply for a closed source tool that one has to pay for, at a minimum the basics have to be solid for the tool to be trusted, accepted and widely adopted IMO. Things like that reinforce the idea it is a non professional tool to people one heck of a lot more than BASIC syntax and method naming or 0 or 1 based indexes IMO.

I just do not understand their priorities now and that has been true for about the last 6 years or so. They just don’t make sense to me… and I doubt I am the only one among long time users.

-Karen

I’ve just looked through the release notes back to 2019r1 and there doesn’t seem to be that many long term bug fixes compared to fixing newly introduced bugs. Do you keep metrics for the number of long term bugs fixed vs the number of newly introduced bugs?

When I read the reactions here, I have the impression that Xojo is downgrading fast. I also have a difficulty that it takes 6 months for a new engineer to understand the codebase behind Xojo. What I am asking myself is, is Xojo so badly written or became it too complex even for the present engineers working on it?

If I make an evaluation for myself over the years, it seems that the Xojo team lacks the necessary experience and knowledge. It seems Xojo became much too complex for them. Based on my own experience, the IDE became very slow and unresponsive. On my new i7 laptop, I did not even install Xojo any longer because it is a far from reliable tool anymore for me.

I am awaiting the release of the Android version and the reaction of users to make my final conclusion. But that seems to be postponed until…

I think Xojo just became too complex to be written in Xojo. I am afraid the Xojo team is meeting their limits of what is possible for them. This is my personal opinion, lets see what the future brings.

How about this: people complain that bugs languish for a long time - is it the case that many of these have no example project? If so, perhaps what would be useful would be a list of such bugs showing the summary posted by each bug’sOP, visibility limited perhaps to testers, with Xojo asking for volunteers to create example projects which exhibit the problem. Those of us, perhaps retired, with a bit of time to spare could thereby maybe move a few issues forward.

That is actually a great idea, however, in the mentioned bug about a datatype (<https://xojo.com/issue/41711> ) Christian sent TWO example projects, so, maybe the lack of explamples is not the problem.

Personally, I prefer that the person that created the case be the one that creates the sample project and instructions so we’re sure to fix what they are reporting. Not someone else’s interpretation thereof.

I wonder what long term bugs are a pain for you guys.
Maybe we can help there with

  • checking if they are still a problem
  • make a sample project if missing
  • providing a workaround until the fix is there

We have a group of MVP’s for the forum, how about a group of code/feedback assistants? They could verify bug reports, makeup sample projects, and submit fixes for the engineers. If an issue is unclear, they could be the ones communicating with the person that submitted the bug report to get clarification, let the engineers keep working on more important things. If we are talking about low hanging fruit, this has to be the top of the pile, a problem that has been tested and a fix is waiting. All they have to do is check that the change will not break anything and implement it. My best boss always told me, don’t come to me with a problem without a solution. It’s not that he didn’t want to help, but he knew that I knew how to fix it, I just needed re-assurance/permission.

[quote=489930:@Christian Schmitz]I wonder what long term bugs are a pain for you guys.
Maybe we can help there with

  • checking if they are still a problem
  • make a sample project if missing
  • providing a workaround until the fix is there[/quote]

Some things I wonder, I know Xojo has a ranking system for bugs and a list of unverified bugs but is there a list of oldest/most complex ones? My fear is that once a bug gets a few weeks old or is very complex, it just gets pushed to the side and unless there is some new activity or some people vote on it, forgotten. Also, regressions like the slow navigator seem to be piling up. It’s like the frog in the boiling water, it didn’t get slow overnight but rather a few years.

Perhaps it’s just me but I don’t see much of the MVPs around here.

The MVPs aren’t just limited to the forums. We do more behind the curtain than in front of it, but we’re busy people, too, with our own jobs and lives to contend with.

@Gavin Smith is probably the most visible of us on the forums, but that doesn’t mean he’s the only one paying attention. I take Private Messages here, on Discord, emails, etc. I talk with other Xojo customers about their issues to try and boil down how I can help, and how I can communicate more effectively what they need to Xojo.

A lot of folks have a lot of impractical ideas about how MVPs should be contributing, and decide that we’re doing nothing if they don’t see us constantly. That couldn’t be further from the truth. We each contribute in our own unique ways to the program with the goal of helping both Xojo and its users.

Xojo already has a very competent QA staff, including the engineers. The MVPs do a lot of out-of-the-loop testing and requesting that you might not see here, but you may see in Feedback depending upon where in the release cycle Xojo is.

[quote=489930:@Christian Schmitz]I wonder what long term bugs are a pain for you guys.
Maybe we can help there with

  • checking if they are still a problem
  • make a sample project if missing
  • providing a workaround until the fix is there[/quote]

I would suggest that, if this is something you want to do, you go for it. You don’t need any sort of special sanctioning from Xojo to look through Feedback for ways you can help.

Haven’t seen the MVPs doing anything else than playing block warden.

There are so many obsolete bugs in Feedback. I love that:

[quote]Beatrix WilliusOctober 13, 2017 - 2:56am UTC
Issue can be closed because code doesn’t crash anymore.[/quote]

And guess what: the issue is still open.

MVPs are not the same as moderators. While the two current moderators may also be MVPs, the two programs are separate and likely won’t always have that overlap and the moderators make up less than 50% of the MVP group. That said, most of what any moderator for any public forum deals with is the same for us in the Xojo forum: Spam.

Edited for clarification.

Going through Feedback issues is intensely frustrating. I found another 2 cases where I wrote in 2017 that the issues can be closed.

I’m aware of that.

I know you are around as you kindly responded to a private message almost immediately.

This is what I commented about. My appreciation of things is that “we” don’t have MVPs for the forum but for some other things that as you mentioned are behind the scenes.

I’m really not sure how to respond to this. The MVPs try to help in all official facets. I’m not sure what a forum-specific set of MVPs would do. I’m on the forums almost all day every day, and usually when I see a thread that I could help with others are already offering the suggestions I would have. That’s a good thing. That’s the sign of a healthy community.

At any rate, we’re getting off-topic. If anyone would like to discuss the MVP program or the moderator program, I invite them to direct message me here, on Discord, via Twitter, or start a new forum thread.

In feedback, if you click the Status: XYZ link at the top you can request it be closed, I assume this is flagged up in some other way as they tend to resolve those actions quite quickly, however your old tickets clearly haven’t been looked at in a long time if the last comment was along the lines of “please close me” which is concerning.

[quote=489952:@Anthony Cyphers]I’m really not sure how to respond to this. The MVPs try to help in all official facets. I’m not sure what a forum-specific set of MVPs would do. I’m on the forums almost all day every day, and usually when I see a thread that I could help with others are already offering the suggestions I would have. That’s a good thing. That’s the sign of a healthy community.

At any rate, we’re getting off-topic. If anyone would like to discuss the MVP program or the moderator program, I invite them to direct message me here, on Discord, via Twitter, or start a new forum thread.[/quote]

Let me try to clarify what I meant: I don’t believe the MVPs are supposed to be forum specific, hence my comment that we do not have them as forum specific MVP is something that does not exist as far as I know.

But yep we are getting off-topic :wink:

Bangs head on desk. Major error in UI design: make things that are clickable LOOK like they are clickable. Would never have thought that the text is a button. Thanks, @JulianS .