Getting irritated...

Damn, why is this forum so unreliable when it comes to editing my own posts? :confused: Sorry for my spelling mistakes. I am posting and working at the phone at the same time. And i am not even speaking good english if i can concentrate on speaking english only :wink:

Oh please. You have zero power in this. Your clumsy attempt at public shaming simply exposes you as as an expensive person to deal with. Attention affected add-on developer: print a PDF of this thread, then copy and paste this into an email to Eric:

[quote]Hi Eric,

I’m canceling your license subscription to XXXX. See attached PDF. I’ve issued you a pro-rated refund of your current subscription via PayPal in the amount of $Y.YY. You are free to continue using versions of XXXX that you have, but we will not be doing business with you going forward. Best of luck in your dealings with other developers!


[Your name here]
And hit your fellow add-on developers for contributions toward the refund. I’m sure the information value of this whole exchange is worth a few bucks to all of us.

Well, it’s best effort. Sometimes I can’t email back within a day. e.g. when traveling I often have a day or two without internet.

This topic illustrates the EXACT reasoning why I refuse to consider the user of 3rd party add-ons to Xojo or any other product.

Thanks Eric! You’ve done a wonderful job aligning the community’s interests to solve your problem. #PassiveAggressiveFAIL

Just my 2 cents: In this particular case, the chance that the Plugin is not causing the issue, i high…

In other words: If i have an issue with a Plugin, i contact the dev and give as much info as i can. If the dev needs more info, i provide everything i will be asked for. If it takes time to solve the issue, i look for a workaround and ask the dev if i am allowed to share the info with the community. If the issue can’t be solved i look for alternative ways to solve MY issue. And so on.
When i buy a Plugin license, i accept a partnership between the Plugin dev and me. And as business partners, proper communication is a must. :slight_smile:

Dave, the problem is not the 3rd party market. Getting support for Xojo itself, plugins or even open source stuff on the internet is limited to what the original authors provide.
Some are quick, but others got a real job to do and have no the time to spend enough time to fix everything quickly.

Dave stated more then 1 time that he’s not willing to be dependent from Plugins (or other devs). And this is totally fine. Plugins are not for everybody.

I think the majority of us is thinking the same, about the form of Erics attempt to ask for help. And i am sure, Eric is already knowing that his first post was not the right way to start looking for other solutions or workarounds.

Let’s all calm down please and if Eric is giving more information about his code issue, we may be able (and some of us are still willing) to help. Everyone of us can have a bad day… :slight_smile:

( a fairly off-topic aside: On my view of this forum, this post from Dave is timed as 9 seconds ago, the response from Brad is timed 4 minutes ago ! - is this just me or are others seeing strange timings ? )

Back on topic : I cannot believe any of the OP’s targets include MBS and given the huge respect for Christian for his work and support ethics then I don’t see why anybody would refuse to consider any 3rd party, add-ons. Anyway, it’s a personal / business choice, but I think Xojo would be a much poorer development platform if there were fewer add-on suppliers.

…I think it was due to other messages being presented whilst I was typing - cured by refresh

I know I did on occasion … :wink:

Let those of us who didn’t have a bad day on occasion throw the first stone … :wink:

To all: No need to be “passive aggressive” or any kind of “aggressive”, it doesn’t help, it just alienates users and drives them away when they come here for help and sometimes just moral support. Showing them a better way to deal with the issue is a much better approach than throwing out the baby with the bathwater … :stuck_out_tongue:

What? No. Totally unacceptable. You’re not allowed to take a vacation ever. :wink:

[quote=119288:@Brad Hutchings]Who are you floored with Norman? The thing I love about this is how the 3rd party add-on developers are the only ones “expected” to have everything together with each release Xojo lets out. You guys get a mulligan for the embedded frame security issue, for example, while whatever developers are being called out by Eric must have zero-day fixes while a .1 release is in the works or he might get irritated with them.

Frankly, I’m floored that this whole topic is acceptable for these forums. Dealing with people respectfully and all that. Seeing this garbage aired like this isn’t an incentive to sell add-ons. But the point seems kinda lost on you guys of late.[/quote]

I deleted that post for a reason
And now will mute this thread

[quote=119470:@Norman Palardy]I deleted that post for a reason
And now will mute this thread

Norman deleted his post after I’d begun composing a reply. I wasn’t trying to embarrass him by quoting something he’d deleted for a reason. I really just wanted to know why this topic is acceptable. From recent experience on these forums, it just makes no sense to me.

Eric this is exactly the reason why I think twice before using any 3rd party component. And I also discuss this with my customers making it clear, that each additional plugin, component, API, middleware etc. increases futute dependencies. And I am speaking about long lasting (5-7 years) business software, which can’t be switched easily day by day.

I prefer open sourced and maintainable 3rd party addons and I am willing to pay the higher prices for the source codes because the situation you described is quite more expensive than this. I really understand your anger.

But please do not blame anybody for this (and it is good you do not share the name in the public). Compare this to a divorced marriage: There have been good times but these times are over now.

Because I can understand exactly how Eric feels. If you’ve been promised (and I mean “we will deliver X on day Y” or “Working on that this week”) then it’s hard not to bet upset when that turns into weeks/months ESP if you have a time limited license.

But I also know things from the other side and that it can be VERY damned hard to say “We will absolutely deliver X on day Y” in this business as there are always surprises because no one knows everything about everything when they make such assurances.
Sometimes you can burn the midnight oil & get it done - sometimes you can’t and no amount of overtime will make it possible.

I was most surprised by your response and deleted my post rather than prod.
And why I should have muted this thread when I said I would - like now

Why not just use an older Xojo with a version of the plugin that works if its so critical?

Most add-on developers don’t make a full time living at it. Have to be patient when anything can change from one Xojo release to the next.

Xojo is no better. At this point I don’t even use new releases. I wait until the inevitable .1 update that reverses whatever they decided to improve.

[quote=119483:@Norman Palardy]I was most surprised by your response and deleted my post rather than prod.

I’m just responding to incentives and disincentives to providing add-ons in this little market. Even Christian admits that license sales produce marginal cash, i.e. they don’t cover the costs of development and that other uses need to do that. So these hidden incentives and disincentives come into play more than some might expect.

Over the past year, I’ve learned to do at least cursory forums and feedback searches on new buyers to see if they’re likely to incur costs exceeding the license offering price. I’ve politely denied sales to a few and had others email me their understanding of payment for support. Geoff’s approach seems to be that add-on developers are expected to donate time to track down some mutual customer issue. Given that these issues I’ve been dragged into currently have a 100% chance of actually being Xojo issues, I’m just minimizing my exposure.

Fix the incentives and you’ll fix get the friendlier ecosystem you seem to want. That this thread was even acceptable from the start is a disincentive.

I know you are firmly against third party products and that is alright. But not all participants have the inclination and the ability to create some of the functions they need. Or the time, for that matter. You yourself have created software destined to help developers. Granted, an enhanced listing printer may not be considered as an add-in to the code, but it is indeed a development tool. Although the engine could probably be applied to other fields like reports. Your PDF class if and when finished falls directly into the add-in category. It makes only sense that someone who has that ability creates such products.

Now a developer has a choice : buy a ready-made solution, or create one’s own. Given enough time, I believe anybody can create all sorts of wonderful features. Let alone for personal education, it can be a very rewarding experience. But what if one does not have time, must deliver for yesterday (gimme that check!) or more simply hates Objective-C? Personally, I enjoy doing research, because I have time and prefer that to chess. But there are things that I find unpalatable. Like dabbing into software signing and sandboxing. Yuk. App Wrapper saved my skin a while ago and am not going to let it go now. Like, for the same deep allergy to Objective-C (yuk yük) reason, spending two days concocting a declare for Mac when it takes at most half an hour for Windows. I know Christian will have some MBS solution that will save me time and aspirin.

I enjoy researching things for Web apps. But if I had to deliver quickly, I would probably look into Studio Stable. For the same very reason I use MBS plugins over MacOSLib and WFS : efficiency, time saving, support.

[quote=119278:@Brad Hutchings]I won’t name any names either, but this thread is an excellent example of why add-on developers need to be careful about who they sell to. There isn’t a single add-on available in this ecosystem where it’s worth updating immediately in emergency mode so that some guy doesn’t passive aggressively call you out on the forums.

Eric, if this had been me you called out like this, you’d have lost access to updates, and we would negotiate a partial refund in exchange for destroying all copies of my product. As it stands, you’re now on my list of people I will not do business with.

If y’alls want add-ons available in this market, act like pros. Calling people out like this is a jerk move.[/quote]

Even if I was using Xojo, I wouldn’t do business with you. If I spend money on a plugin, I expect it to be updated as that is what I paid the developer for! I guess according to you, your customers don’t have a right to complain when your product breaks via a Xojo update. I also now know what your’re all about now. You’re all about the money and you don’t give a rat’s ass about quality.

I love that bit where you claim that calling people out is a crap move? Didn’t you, yourself do that on your “I’m leaving” post? Yep, you did.