Free discussion or not of Xojo on this forum?

A thread " is xojo really going nowhere fast" has just been locked on this forum.
AFAIK the OP didn’t ‘abuse’ anyone or even xojo the product.
Many users felt he was trolling but others supported him.
I’d like to have the official Xojo p.o.v. for locking the thread.

Well, Alan turned that thread into a troll fest so that’s why it got locked. He asked for information on company internals which are none of his business, and when he was told so by other users behaved like a petulant child.

He can argue his point (I have done that quite forcefully myself) but he has to understand that some info is none of his business (like what you or I are earning, how many copies of our software we sold etc).

Several users asked for the thread to be locked. Rightly so in my opinion.

If you think that’s ‘strange’ Greg from Xojo inc. completely deleted my post without any explanation or warning and I didn’t violate any forum rules or insult anyone. Meanwhile Greg from Xojo inc. felt it was ok to leave Michel B’s insulting post where he calls the OP a TROLL.

In my opinion Michel B should be banned as calling people trolls is against forum rules and he does this routinely. Yet for some strange Xojo reason he’s never banned from the forum.

Seriously, now I got an error saying I don’t have permission to post (perform this action).

And they wonder why there aren’t more customers of this product.

It is a legitimate qusetion for a user to ask how many customers a company has.
OTOH I wouldn’t necessarily expect such a question to be answered.
Companies can have many reasons for keeping such information private.
If however a company seeks to suffocate discussion around this topic then that is a concern.
That is what xojo appears to have done here.

It was his tone … It was obvious he was angry and/or trying to denigrate Xojo … but without any explanation of why. I was also obvious he was going to attack anyone who he thought was disagreeing with him (see his 1st response to me)

Xojo as REALBasic and REALStudio have been around for a good number of years… I bought my first license over 12 years ago and they had been around awhile before that.

It is only recently that the IDE became free so obviously a lot of licenses were sold before that…

So yes he was a troll with a ax to grind with respect to Xojo for some unknown reason he was not forthcoming about … so it was right for the thread to be locked

[quote=56107:@john bowen]If however a company seeks to suffocate discussion around this topic then that is a concern.
That is what xojo appears to have done here.[/quote]
That is where we differ. If you read his last posts then you see that it wasn’t a discussion anymore. I would have been interested in some constructive discussion, but his petulance killed it (and no, other people saying “then use something else” wasn’t helping much either).

And seriously, there is now a “user unknown”? Are we back in kindergarden? I’ve been known to harshly criticize Xojo but I always put my money where my mouth is and stood for what I believed in. If “user unknown” can’t take the heat and stand up for himself then that tells more about him than Xojo or other users.

Here is an interesting link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Why is it not possible for this forum to evict indelicate people like this User Unknown ? That would be a definite service to users. I find anonymous posts quite offensive :frowning:

It’s a legitimate question that ANY company has the right to say “That’s none of your business” to.
Even publicly traded companies often don’t answer that question to their own shareholders and as far I I’m aware they’re not required to.
So to ask it of a privately held company expect a “No Answer” or “No comment”

[quote=56107:@john bowen]
Companies can have many reasons for keeping such information private.
If however a company seeks to suffocate discussion around this topic then that is a concern.
That is what xojo appears to have done here.[/quote]
We’ve been round this merry-go-round a few times (usually having to do with “privacy” but ….)
The forums are OURs - they’re not “public property” - so we do get to exercise editorial control over them - which includes locking threads that are as far off topic as that one veered.

They are intended to be used for fostering community and collaboration.
“Discussions” (like the one locked) do not do anything to contribute to that.
As you’ll note our own users asked the thread be locked.

[quote=56124:@Michel Bujardet]
Why is it not possible for this forum to evict indelicate people like this User Unknown ? That would be a definite service to users. I find anonymous posts quite offensive :([/quote]
Hence why we ask people to use their real names - but there are a die hard handful that refuse & simply sign up for new accounts over & over & over so they can post anonymously.

Ignore them - in the mean time enjoy the irony of anonymous users complaining about people not following the rules :slight_smile:

Free discussion? Yes. Xojo has always been very tolerant of dissenting views. Often more-so than the rest of us users.

[quote]And seriously, there is now a “user unknown”? Are we back in kindergarden?
If “user unknown” can’t take the heat and stand up for himself then that tells more about him than Xojo or other users.[/quote]

As usual so often I see people forming their wrong opinions on bad information.

As I’ve written before I did not choose the name ‘User Unknown’. That is a name bestowed upon my account by a Xojo inc. employee. Oh I believe he’s commenting in this thread. I logged in one day and to my surprise found that a Xojo inc. employee did that. And I feel the Xojo inc. employee did this intentionally to try to turn customers against me and other ‘is not verified’ customers. He’s previously argued against respecting customer right’s to privacy in other threads and he often is insulting or rude to them. His recent attitude has changed to be more respectful to customers so it seems he had a talking to which is a good thing. So you both are wrongfully falling right into his trap. Personally if an employee did that to one of my customers I’d fire him or at a minimum make him apologize to every customer he was disrespectful to. An employee is just an employee and they are replaceable. The damages a bad employee causes is not losing him any money, it’s costing the business owner money.

Search the forum and you’ll see I mentioned this before because someone else also said similar about this name.

Markus you might be interested in knowing that my previous account used my real name and I was wrongfully targeted by many here which is why I now need to remain anonymous and that should be respected. Some members here have already proved they are untrustworthy and unprofessional characters. We already know there’s many dangerous weirdos on the internet as well. There is also no reason for other Xojo customers to know my identity and there are many reasons I and others protect our identities. My and other Xojo customer’s rights to privacy should be respected and it’s really not a big deal to respect those rights.

Not knowing who I am or who another Xojo customer is does not hurt you or others on this forum in any way. Not at all. I would think most others would understand this but it seems many here don’t understand a lot of things when those things differ from their own personal belief or goal. Just as many of you claim it’s no customer’s business to know or even ask about Xojo’s internal business operations (even though we spend a lot of money on these products and invest years of our lives around them) you should easily be able to understand it’s no Xojo customer’s business to know another Xojo customer’s personal business or personal life choices. You are not my customers. You are not my family and almost none of you here on this forum are my real life personal friends. Some of you who are already know who I am. I don’t need to publicly spread my name across the internet but again I do not have a large ego. The purpose of this forum is not a random social gathering, it’s purpose is a support forum for the product we customers and future customers use. If you want to get personal and ‘know the personal details’ of the person you’re posting to or receiving posts from then you should probably find another vehicle that’s developed for personal relationships and social media. I feel that Xojo developers that have professional needs generally don’t waste a lot of time with personal chit chat here on the forum and to do so creates a lot of noise to signal which does an unjustice to other paying xojo customers.

That doesn’t mean I don’t like other forum members and it certainly doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate helpful posts. I always do appreciate them, thank you to everyone. In the past under different names on both the RS forum and even the Realgurus forum (for those of you who have been around long enough to know what I’m talking about) I’ve contributed plenty in the count of thousands of posts over the 10 years I’ve been using this product.

So if some forum members want to penalize me for Xojo inc. putting this name on my account so I and other ‘is not verified’ customers are wrongly targeted to be treated differently well that too is your choice and I think it’s disappointing. We’ve seen this type of behavior before during WW II from a little Austrian / German dwelling guy. It has his idea to pin stars on certain people’s chests to make them targets so they can be treated differently. It doesn’t really ruin my day like the Xojo inc. employee was hoping for. I’m beyond that. I think such behavior is low class and pathetic. I’m someone that tries to make life better for people not worsen their lives.

I don’t try to force anyone to use their real name or real image because I’m intelligent enough to understand everyone may have different reasons and needs for protecting their identities. For example a real but extreme version of this is for people that live or partake in a community where they are not allowed to belong to a non-approved forum or comminicative vehicle. Such people can not only be exiled but in some cases can even be jailed (or beaten) for accessing this forum. So these individuals needing to protect their identities while trying to develop Xojo made software while seeking a better life for themselves and their families are wrongfully being targeted and treated unfairly by certain members here and even the company which labels them as targets. Losing that anonymity would be severely damaging to their lives and I really don’t understand people who try to force that upon others because they selfishly want to know who someone is. People like that are selfishly putting their own wants before someone else’s wants and in some cases another person’s actual needs. That’s pretty bad considering those people are complete strangers that have nothing to do with your personal life.

Why would you want to forcefully destroy someone’s life like that?
Not directed at any particular members but trying to force other’s to your will and wants is showing signs of serious control issues and disrespect for others.
Just to satisfy your own personal ego of having to know who’s posting?
That’s incredibly selfish.

It’s also very possible ‘verified’ accounts might be showing fake names if that’s what the customer wanted. Xojo inc. does not verify driver’s licenses, birth certificates, or SSN’s (thankfully). I know I could setup a verified account showing a realistic fake name but I’m honest enough to not do it and I have enough faith in most of the customers here to respect other’s rights to privacy without being prejudiced against them. I’m hoping most of you are intelligent and thoughtful enough to do so :slight_smile:

Think about it. When driving in traffic do you not let someone before you unless you demand their driver’s license and run a criminal report on them before?
How do you know the person you just let into a space isn’t a horrible person? You don’t.
What about the waiter or waitress you give actual money in the form of a tip?
You have no idea if that person is a good honest person or a monster but you’re willingly giving them money possibly helping them to do their harm.
I’m quite positive there are some very bad people that are waiters or waitresses in our society.
So why don’t those that don’t respect other Xojo customer’s rights of privacy run your waiter’s or waitresses ID and do an internet criminal report on them before you tip them if your feelings about such things are so important as you claim?
If you did such a thing management may throw you out of their business because to do that could be considered very offensive and even threatening to the waitress.
Where do you draw the line? You need to know her full name? See her driver’s license? Know her address? Phone number? Check her job history?

Sorry guys, I’m not that type of person with such control issues. I try to do the best I can with the information provided. I still tip people and am nice and helpful to them even if I don’t know them on a personal level. I try to treat people with respect and I expect the same.

[quote]Why is it not possible for this forum to evict indelicate people like this User Unknown ? That would be a definite service to users. I find anonymous posts quite offensive :frowning:
[/quote]

Michel Bujardet. You are probaby the most insulting member on this forum and we’ve seen you call people TROLL many times and they weren’t even communicating with you.
People should search this forum and see you repeatedly call people TROLLS or be rude to them for no reason. If you read my posts you’ll see I don’t do that. And you’re saying I’m indelicate? You are the exact type of person why so many customers here need to remain anonymous so our identites are protected.

You claim

Ok, so you find it quite offensive.
I’m sure there’s people that find your repeated name calling and rudeness very offensive. I’m sure some other people would find your disregard to forum etiquette by using a toy robot instead of a real picture of yourself offensive. Some people are easily offended for no justifiable reason. That is different than being verbally degraded or targeted.

Why you seem to think that what you want is how Xojo inc. should run their company but yet you yourself are disrespecting their forum etiquette is telling. You seem to be the kind of person that only cares about what you want and anyone who disagrees you see as wrong. Well that’s not how reality works. Just because someone’s opinion is different than yours doesn’t make them wrong or unvaluable.

Personally I’m not bothered that you use a toy robot as your avatar. I’m not a control freak so I have no need to see who you are.You have your reasons for doing it and I respect your decision. See how nice that works out? Why you cannot be the same way is only by your own choice. My ‘issue’ with you is that you call people TROLLS which is incredibly unprofessional and highly offensive to them. You invite yourself into a conversation having nothing to do with you just so you can call people TROLLS. You do this repeatedly when nobody even mentions you or directs any comments towards you. You are a repeat offender of violating this forum policy. You intentionally insult other paying customers of Xojo inc. and that is losing them money. Let’s not be naive pretending that you don’t know you’re harming other Xojo inc. customers. Let’s also not be so naive to think that other potential customers don’t search the internet and read these forum posts. They see how people like you treat existing customers or would be customers and how you repeatedly insult them unwarranted. That chases them away and you are costing Geoff Perlman a lot of money.

Your repeated insults Michel Bujardet are costing Geoff Perlman money and are damaging Xojo inc’s reputation.
Calling people TROLLS is unprofessional at a minimum and to allow this behavior is losing this company money. Why those posts are allowed are disappointing and insulting to many. I’m sure things like this is why this company loses many customers and can’t seem to grow much in the past 5 years.

It would be nice if you respected this company and other paying customers of Xojo inc.
Hopefully you will find a way to do that.

Something of interest here is that we’ve seen both Markus Winter and Michel Bujardet and other real name users complain about customers who are now using some anonymous id. However it’s most often the real name users that are very insulting to others. Both Markus and Michel have said some incredibly hurtful and rude things on this forum in the past, while I have not. The point I am making is someone’s name or handle does not mean they are rude or a problem causing individual.
To think so is very prejudice and narrow minded. I would hope we’re a group of higher intellectuals than to sink to that level.

Happy new year to all, let’s hope 2014 is a great year! :slight_smile:

Would it be bad to limit forums to only those who hold valid licenses? There is enough content and the old forums to reference from. Also gives non forum users incentive to get a license? Prevent nonesense, strengthen content, reduce “garbage posts”/clutter, and keep morale up? Just a thought. Nothing “noob” related is new in the new forums, that hasn’t already been answered in the old forums. Happy new year everyone and thank you Xojo, Inc. for another great year.

[quote=56144:@User Unknown]
As I’ve written before I did not choose the name ‘User Unknown’. That is a name bestowed upon my account by a Xojo inc. employee. [/quote]
Since I am the only Xojo employee commenting on this thread I will say that suggesting that I changed or “bestowed” any name on you is crap - plain and simple. All we’ve ever asked or that I’ve ever asked is that people use their real names in the forums.

I started by writing a long rebuttal of all the claims (like being nazi’s labeling people WOW !!!) and decided that quite honestly it’s just not worth the time or trouble.

I just love the irony though about User Unknown telling folks how to obey the rules we’ve set out.
Pot meet kettle.

We’ve thought about that and rather than restrict users who may not have bought a license from using & interacting on the forums we’ve decided that we’d police the small number of folks who can’t/don’t/won’t abide by the fairly simple expectations we have.

We can ban users by a range of techniques but RARELY do so.
I’m not the arbiter of who does / does not get banned but certainly have my fair say when it comes to discussions of whether or not we should.

Wow… Just wow…

If you are seriously writing a novel about a private company’s forum and it’s purpose… Maybe it’s time to unplug and step away for a bit.

Mind energy, it’s a magnificent gift we have as humans. Some don’t realise its importance in creating change. The understanding that as Captains of our ship we decide where to sail. Some sail right in to the storm of decayed thought never realising that if they changed direction and sailed towards the beauty that is calm thought waters they’d realise that the inherent storms they create in their minds are there because they decided to put them there.

It is sad to see that some go even further in to the storm of the minds troubled thought, even though it hurts them. To create within their own minds a stress so great that it consumes valuable, beautiful thought energy over something so simple as using ‘Real Names’ on a forum shows to me that managing their minds resources is something they’ve never managed to do well.

It goes a long way to explaining why they wish to hide. It is foolish though because no matter the way they conceal themselves i.e. current username, proxy or whatever they hide behind, that mind storm is following them wherever they go.

Sometimes the stress they create for themselves regarding a problem turns in to a Monsoon of decayed thought rain but when looking at the problem the stress should have been no more than just a few grey clouds.

Note
Apologies if my style of expression is somewhat confusing. I guess it is because of the way I look at things and what I choose to occupy my mind with.

You are right, that’s what to do. Let me start the year with a wish : if that is possible, an “ignore” feature in the forum, analogous to what most Usenet readers do. So some annoying users can be ignored even better :wink:

Not me.

I find quite annoying to have to register to send ‘Thank You’ (comments or questions) for example. In these cases, I simply close the window and read Something Else.

Also, as a non english mother language, sometimes my text “is not written correctly”. In that case, it would be nice to try to take what the poster try to say instead of “what I feel he wrote”.

Example: I cry because I have troubles using ToolBar. Try to think: “What can be wrong into programming ToolBar” instead of anything else (starting with: ToolBar fits my needs). Even if it is my fault, I ask help. Act like that.

Of course, if the poster is acting like a Troll or… like it was said earlier: ignore the thread, do not reply and there will be no need to close that discussion.

[quote=56179:@Emile Schwarz]Not me.

I find quite annoying to have to register to send ‘Thank You’ (comments or questions) for example.[/quote]

You obviously took the minute to register and are a regular contributor to these forums. You are acting with an open face, and use your real name. That makes you a gentleman.

People who insist on intervening here anonymously act like cowards who have only one agenda : disturb discussions and create discord.

I wished for an ignore command. I should wish for the only feature suited for disruptive posts : deletion. Hope the next release will allow deletion of anonymous spew.

Hiding behind a fake headshot in your avatar is IMO just as anonymous as using a fake name. And i find it just as offensive as a fake name, it’s just as saying talk to my robot or my cat or dog, i don’t want to talk to you.