Elastic Window up for grabs?

It sounds like Christian is looking for someone to take over Elastic Window. See his 8/7/14 blog post at http://pariahware.com/code/.

I’ve used the desktop version and would like to use the web version, but I don’t want to get started if it won’t be supported in the future.

[quote=118691:@Dean Davidge]It sounds like Christian is looking for someone to take over Elastic Window. See his 8/7/14 blog post at http://pariahware.com/code/.

I’ve used the desktop version and would like to use the web version, but I don’t want to get started if it won’t be supported in the future.[/quote]

I read one of his last posts on his site at http://pariahware.com/code/ . The guy has a heavy load on his mind. Indeed it does not seem wise to invest at this stage.

Xojo has already started on Auto Layout in iOS and have said it will go into Web and then the Desktop frameworks in the future. It makes me wonder what the long term future of ElasticWindow is.

I hope someone will pick it up. If I wasn’t already slammed with consulting work and other product work I might think about it. But it’s also a product that I don’t use (although I own a license) so I don’t have much incentive.

Maybe it take years to Xojo come up with this feature xplat, who knows? Xojo native report writer exists for years and still have bugs because they focus on other parts of the ecosystem. I hope BKS or MBS (or any really interested known capable person) contact him and check the possibility of keeping this work going on while it is relevant. Once it becomes irrelevant, make the source public.

[quote=118752:@Bob Keeney]Xojo has already started on Auto Layout in iOS and have said it will go into Web and then the Desktop frameworks in the future. It makes me wonder what the long term future of ElasticWindow is.
[/quote]

Well they have had PDF support “scheduled” for a LONG time so I would not expect autolayout on the desktop for a LONG time. Given the need IMO is greater for web apps, I suspect that is where it may go first after iOS.

  • Karen

Indeed, web maybe the first. But one can hope that autolayout comes to desktop with 64 bits, which is another iOS spinoff.

They’ve already said this is the next platform for AutoLayout.

I hate to see another experienced Xojo developer leaving.

Way of the World.

There are at least two things to programming: mastering the language, and mastering the concepts (OOP). Possibly more.

There are a lot of people who start out in Xojo because the language is easy to master (BASIC), and you get to produce functional apps quickly.

As you progress you pick up OOP concepts that apply to pretty much every language, and this makes it easier to get started in languages which have a steeper learning curve.

[When I started with programming everything was procedural, and I had a hard time getting my head around OOP concepts.]

Now you have a choice: stay, or move on.

It depends where your priorities are.

Xojo is an excellent RAD tool, and cross-platform is easy most of the time.

Xcode or VisualC will give you access to much more, but you loose the RAD (Apple is trying to address this with Swift) and the easy cross-platform capability.

So some stay with Xojo and build a business around it even though they could go on because Xojo gives them all they need.

Others move on to other platforms.

And some do both - stay with Xojo AND use other tools … depending on what they need at the time.

Yes, it’s a pity :frowning: But unless Xojo picks up the pace and gets e.g. those annoying bugs out of the IDE (especially on Windows), I’m afraid more will follow. I can hardly remember reading any objective positive review anymore. When I meet some fellow RB/Xojo programmers (rarely these days) on reddit by example, none are programming in the Xojo IDE, but all turned back to the old RB one (as did I). By coincidence, I was somehow following how many users are online at this forum at any time and the number hardly jumped over 20, mostly the same people. Unless I’m misinterpreting this number, this is really low compared to other fora.

I apologies if this post annoys someone, but it makes me feel sad reading another fellow developer left. There’s no smoke without a fire and some of their arguments really make sense. Like I said, it’s a pity…

I fully agree Alain.

I use the new IDE even though I prefer the old one . I use teh new one so I don’t get stuck as things move on.

I know people are complaining about IDE bugs, but truly the last IDE transition (RB 5.5 -> RB2005) was buggier… This time I think it is combination of bugs and design decisions that exacerbate them.

But i think sometime else is also at work this time. I think at this time in the product’s life expectation are higher than they were in the past… and in general expectations are higher.

In any case I do hope the company and the product continues to survive and improve…

For single platform they will never have support for all the bells and whistles that the single platform products do… On the Mac, Swift may make coding easier there (for those that like C like languages). all that tends make Xojo less attractive for those targeting a single platform despite Xojo’s approachability.

Until recently they have not had any serious competition on the Xplatform side but it looks like a strong competitor may be emerging (again for this that can deal with C like languages and know .net)

But my brain does not do C like languages… so I really hope things go well for Xojo…

IMO the only effective and non destructive way for Xojo to silence the critics and stop defections, is to improve the product quality.

  • Karen

Indeed, that’s my feeling too

Reading all of Christian’s postings that he links to… OK, please don’t take this the wrong way. Read it very carefully. If you sign a contract or agree to terms like that, it’s on you. This kind of stuff has become quite common in tech circles in the last decade, and my pet theory is that there’s kind of a cottage industry of books and seminars and courses that purport to teach people how to act “powerfully” and be “leaders”. I often see power tactics deployed tentatively or as if copied out of a text book.

If you get a contract that has an awkward “power clause” in it, circle it and write “How much is this worth?” next to it. When you’re done reviewing the contract, ask the other party how much each of these things are worth. And by that, I mean “what additional money are you going to pay me for this privilege?”. You’re doing them a favor by considering the contract. You’re not selling yourself into slavery or submission. You’re not agreeing to agree with them. Put them on notice that you recognize the game they’re playing, and that your relationship, if there is going to be one, will not be on terms of silly power games.

Real power in a business relationship is simply achieved by the parties moving, of their own free will, in the same direction. It’s like walking a dog or a pack of dogs. When you’re all on the same page and striving to remain on the same page, it’s magical. When you’re pulling in different directions, you’re not exercising power or control. You’re just fighting.

At the same time… If you’re trying to end up in a business relationship where you’re walking of your own free will in the same direction, trade criticisms and barbs privately. Don’t pull the other party’s pants down in public. Ideally, you act that way because you understand the real game. But also consider that when you walk close to others in the same direction, they know your flaws well enough to retaliate and leave a mark.

My 4 points on this matter:

  1. They had a misunderstanding, fought, Christian lost, Christian gave up. End.

  2. Christian want someone to receive his burden to bear and carry his work forward. I hope he can find someone capable.

  3. “I hate to see another experienced Xojo developer leaving.” - JH. Me too. - RA.

  4. “IMO the only effective and non destructive way for Xojo to silence the critics and stop defections, is to improve the product quality” - KA. / Yep. Developers must be able to develop or will need to find another tool. A=Ball, If A=Cube Then “Fill a bug report and wait 3 years”, Raise UnacceptableException.

[quote=118911:@Alain Bailleul]Yes, it’s a pity :frowning: But unless Xojo picks up the pace and gets e.g. those annoying bugs out of the IDE (especially on Windows), I’m afraid more will follow. I can hardly remember reading any objective positive review anymore. When I meet some fellow RB/Xojo programmers (rarely these days) on reddit by example, none are programming in the Xojo IDE, but all turned back to the old RB one (as did I). By coincidence, I was somehow following how many users are online at this forum at any time and the number hardly jumped over 20, mostly the same people. Unless I’m misinterpreting this number, this is really low compared to other fora.

I apologies if this post annoys someone, but it makes me feel sad reading another fellow developer left. There’s no smoke without a fire and some of their arguments really make sense. Like I said, it’s a pity…[/quote]

If you watch TV, you will see the 1 per ten thousand of loosers and other criminals that do things visible. You do not see the immense majority of honest people. When you go to a social media, you see the most disgruntled, the least balanced, the biggest egos and bitter people available. Not the happy, articulate and balanced ones. There you have Reddit. Journalists hate trains arriving on time, but will jump on anything that is rotten. There you have your not positive reviews.

I happen to like the new IDE better than RB I have used since 2002, like many, many other programmers, and very successful ones at that. It’s alright for some people to like better the good old times and to dwell on the past. But what do you make of the immense majority of satisfied Xojo users who do not have the need to go out and spit on the product ?

The Xojo forum is far from ridiculous as compared to others. I happen to be often in the VB for Windows Store apps msdn forum. They have about the same amount of posts, and most of the answers are made by MS staff. Very little interaction between members. I would not call that a sense of community.

I also participate in the Livecode and Basic4Android forums. Much, much less people and contributions, even if one can find there a sense of community and mutual help.

Of course, if you compare this forum to SO, you have much less contributions. But SO is not a forum. It is a bashing fair, where interaction is limited to abuse.

I was definitely one of the later users to finally move to Xojo, for many of the reasons listed in the thread above. But most of my concerns have been resolved and really for the first time in 2014r2.1 (in FC1 right now) I think it is close to solid on the Windows platform. A LOT of the irritating IDE annoyances have been ironed out. It actually feels more solid to me now than RB 2012r2. There are still some things that need to be addressed and there is still some work to do with the IDE (a LOT of wasted space that could be put to good use in that toolbar, and the Tab/Lock mechanism is not thought out all the way, for a couple of examples). But all in all, for the first time in Xojo, I feel like I am concentrating on my work instead of fighting the IDE. And trust me, I have been dragged kicking and screaming into the new IDE the past year,but now I really like it. When I fire up RB it now looks dated and uninviting IMO.

RS looking dated i agree with…

But I have exclusively used Xojo for coding for a long time now and still get lost in the Navigator.

I’ve got the Left tab nailed down (locked on FileTypes which keeps it from changing when I double-click on other items to pull them up in a new tab) and that really helps. I would love to be able to use the Navigator Filter Search, but don’t because of a bug in that it will cause it to look focus right in the middle of typing and switch to a code window as you are typing…and then typing right into your top line of code. So I end up searching a lot with the Find at the bottom. I agree, this is probably the most annoying thing in the IDE now. Removing the bookmarks runs a close second. Most IDEs in the programming world has bookmarks, I have no earthly idea why Xojo programmers are views as so different, that they wouldn’t want them. They would go along way to resolving many search problems we have in the IDE.

But all in all, it is workable for me now.

Man, you get mad fast…

I’ m not talking about reddit as a review site, but the place I have a chance to meet RB/Xojo programmers. When people start talking rubbish, I’m also out. But there are a lot of reasonable people out there to.

e.g. out of one of my latest discussions:

I really can’t see anything wrong with this statement. This is humans discussing the pros and cons of a product. The point I made was there are not many sites giving Xojo a good review lately. Point of concern.

Now who’s talking rubbish? This very moment:

B4A forum: Discussions: 40,412, Messages: 258,568, Members: 60,431, Active: 139
Xojo forum: Discussions: 12,862, Messages: 110,035, Members: 8,710, Active: 19

And about quality? A discussion like this would not even be accepted as a valid one on B4A by Erel. Almost every message is on topic, questions, answers while on this forum I have to use the filter on top to get real topics.

But this is all besides the point. The reason I mentioned the number of active users was another concern. I feel like the the number of users of xojo is dropping (I could be wrong). Because that woul be bad for all of us. Just a statement man, don’t feel attacted every time someone questions Xojo.

Voila, thank you Merv. This is much more constructive. I have a concern, you say there is hope :slight_smile:

Most of the programmers I have those discussions with are experienced reasonable programmers who probably like me for the moment just can work much faster in the old IDE than in the new one. Maybe we are old school and don’t want to grab for the mouse every second. Like Karen, I also get lost in the Navigator, spending needless time searching for something through hundreds of classes for the one I need. Maybe if the back/forward buttons would work better (and maybe they do in 2014r2.1, I don’t know) I will be happier also. I don’t blog, share code, help with problems because I hate Xojo, but because I love it. But I’m entitled to raise my concerns also, I hope.

Perhaps I better never had written my previous post, but my doctor said it’s bad for the hart to keep everything inside :slight_smile:

No hard feelings to anyone, let’s all stay Xojo friends…