Concerned about Xojo releases

Hi

If xojo release xojo2013r2.1 say (vs xojo2013r2.0 as of today) the increment being bug fixes for things that should have worked in the first place, will someone who has a license for xojo2013R2(.0) which has subsequently expired be able to compile with 2.1 i.e does that count as a new release? I don’t mind paying for enhancements/new features - I baulk at paying for bug fixes - and I already feel somewhat aggrieved that the last release is primarily bug fixes and document changes (and a few relatively minor enhancements). Xojo2013R2 should have been xojo2013R1.1 (or whatever in my opinion) not release 2 as that implies new features etc A major step forward not an incremental release to fix what is broken. No other software vendor I have experience of fixes bugs to a current release and expects the customer to pay for that. Indeed with some I become frustrated at the number of patches released for minor improvements and/or bug fixes. If a customer of mine says “you said it would do this but it does not” and that is true - I would not answer them with “Thanks for that - I’ll fix it in the next release which you can buy to get your product working”.

What is xojo’s view?

So you can’t use r2 because your license expired? Or what?

As far as I know, works this way:

Suppose you have a license until 2020-05-10. And Xojo launched Xojo R998877 in 2020-05-09.
Their 30 engineers worked and fixed the 2 existent bugs and added 3 new features until next day 2020-05-10.
As those bugs could compromise the work of the user base, they released Xojo R998878 in 2020-05-11.
In 2020-05-15 you noticed those releases, and downloaded both, but:
-With Xojo R998877, you can run and build ok, because it was launched BEFORE your license was expired.
-With Xojo R998878 you can run but can’t build (deploy), because it was launched AFTER your license expiration.

I’m pretty sure the rX.y releases are covered by the same license as the rX release.

[quote]No other software vendor I have experience of fixes bugs to a current release and expects the customer to pay for that.
[/quote]
That is understandable: software companies vary in how they choose to recover the cost of updates. Some do it one way, some another. Eventually, though, the people who create the updates have to be paid somehow. Either you pay more up front, or you pay over time.

Xojo is very much not alone in their approach to this. There are other development frameworks and applications where if you do not pay an annual fee, you stop receiving access to any updates at all.

These days, some applications are moving to a monthly subscription model. When you stop paying, the application stops working and you may have no way to read your documents any more. That may work well for some companies who can expense the costs more easily.

But for others, the Xojo model is better because you have the option to keep using the version you have even if you stop paying for updates. With the Xojo model, you do not have to pay in advance for future updates you may choose not to use if you business (or life) plans change.

From what I can tell the point release was meaningless. If you’re going to version by release then do just that. It’s either released or not released it can’t be fractionally released. I found it annoying. Glad it’s gone.

A license that was current at the time a full release was put out will also allow you to build with a point release, even if the license expired in the interim. We strive to include as many features and bug fixes in each release as possible. You can always take a look at our release notes here: http://documentation.xojo.com/index.php/Release_Notes

N. January’s complaint really has more to do with the basic reliability of the product than anything else. No software is perfect so the complaint of “should we pay for bug fixing” applies to any piece of software. The only difference is the amount of impact those bugs cause people.

Although I agree that REAL/Xojo’s reliability has always needed to be better, I’ll side with Xojo on this one. You could always try the new version out first before you renewed. Also, Xojo has an impossible task on their hands trying to please everyone, and this type of product tried to fill a dizzying amount of needs. Lastly, I use REAL2011r3 and am very happy with it. I am sliding into Xojo very nicely and in no hurry, Carbon still is okay in the Mac world and there’s no hurry.

The truth is that Xojo is always able to make quality apps and that the complaints (though legitimate) hardly touch to the core of the product. I would plead with my fellow Xojo developers to keep their complaints more in context. Sometimes when I read these things it’s like the product hardly even works, which isn’t true.

Personally, I wish that Xojo would find some serious venture capital (or whatever it takes) and hire 20 developers today. That would patch up a lots of issues and hurry the backlog of projects to market. I didn’t realize this properly, but it’s been noted that Xojo Windows really could use a .NET switch, and I think Xojo Windows really needs it. You can’t say “Windows” around here without saying the word "flicker’ in the same sentence.

But it was said that it is the equivalent of the switch to Cocoa for the project. That extremely concerns me - Cocoa took forever. I want Xojo to stop playing catch up and start being on the leading edge of things. Hire the 20 and get iOS and .NET out there. =)

Long term, uggh. I’ve been involved in 2 situations with Venture Capital firms. In both cases the product suffered mightily in the long run. I care more about what the company will look like in 5 years rather than getting some big and delayed projects out the door. Although I understand the frustration of things always seemingly like they take longer than it seems like it should.

It’s easy to fob this off as a “complaint” which it does not seem to be IMO merely a concern. As he says he/she baulks at paying for a myriad of bug fixes (rightly or wrongly) so he/she is likely to wait until something more interesting is available. So that’s a license “lost” for xojo which they have to replace just to stand still. So you’re affected ultimately because what you see is as important might not get done owing to lack of financial resources. It’s about maintenance of existing customers coupled with getting new customers which will ultimately sustain the company. No good getting a 1000 new licenses if 3000 don’t renew - chasing your tail.

Doesn’t other software simply disable the “unpaid for” features based on your license, while letting you use the bug-fixed code?

With the IDE being free and potentially buggy (risk to programmers) I would have thought they’d have to implement the above process .

Interesting replies. Thanks. No real incentive to renew until something more substantial is available. Hmmm…

I’d say you are very lucky that Xojo doesn’t require a premium to renew.

There’s a novel strategy. Buy my product which has some flaws. Oh if you want one that works properly (and does what it should do) then you can pay a premium on top of the original price. So in effect I’d pay twice plus a little more.

There is not a single interesting piece of software on your computer that “works perfectly” and has no bugs. Multiply by about 100 if you’re talking about development software. Xojo’s rapid release model lets them address this issue intelligently. Each release, there are a whole bunch of bug fixes, typically counted in the hundreds. These fixes affect the IDE and frameworks. Each release also typically has some new things that might be of interest to many developers. They have a feedback system that lets you report issues and help them get started tracking them down. You pay for continued access to periodic fixes.

And guess what? With the new model introduced with Xojo, you only need to purchase if you need to build. So by all means, take advantage of the IDE fixes in new releases and renew when you need the fixes that affect your builds. That’s not even gaming the system. There are other advantages to staying current as well, but they probably apply more to “pro” users who understand the value of membership models to begin with.

Here’s the concern I have w/ Xojo. I get pissed with bugs I run across all the time… and most of the time it’s simply because I have too much hope for this platform to take off, and get too frustrated when simple bugs the should have NEVER been uncaught get slipped into the releases (such as one I just encountered, where NONE of the WebControls I’ve set the Cursor property to in a web application, actually work). Bigger issue is that with the new license policy and letting beginners use their IDE without buying a build license to ‘learn’ the language with… as a beginner in anything (like me trying to dab into the Web-side of things), I knock my head into the wall 8-hours at times trying to get something working. I chalk it up to it being my inexperience. Some of the time, I find out that it’s not… that it’s actually because Xojo is not working the way it’s intended. Tonight, I was asked by Greg to submit a feedback ticket on a bug I encountered… only to waste about 40 minutes of my time entering the bug details and have the feedback system give me an error on submit (a communication error about an invalid token) and close me out without saving what I previously entered (losing everything I entered). Even the FEEDBACK system for me breaks. God dang-it!
I’m rootin’ for Xojo… have for a long time. Been frustrated a long time too. I’m not ready yet to throw in the towel, but I’m afraid you can’t ask most people to be ‘patient and wait’. I will be honest in saying that I haven’t purchased a license yet due to the bugs (waiting on more stability). Cross-platform is the future, and more and more development frameworks are catching this. That margin that makes Xojo attractive to developers is becoming more and more narrow as far as competition. And argue as you want, with ‘all software has bugs’… I’ve never experienced, nor have I witnessed any developers in the companies I’ve worked with, have as many issues with their development platforms (.NET, Delphi, etc.) as I’ve experienced, witnessed, and hear about with Xojo (just skimming at the open tickets in the Feedback system before it crashed on me gave me a pitted feeling in my stomach… already there from all the issues people have on the forums [granted again, some of those are issues of inexperience of the user]).
Anyhow, again… I say all this because I’m disappointed. But, a true fan sticks by their team disappointed or not. I’m still rootin’ for Xojo, it’s just time to get it together, folks.

In the Windows service industry where I work I deal with minor products like A/V (NOD32) & backup software like Storage Craft. Both of these products require a minimum of a cross-over premium if your maintenance plan expires. This is industry expectation.

Xojo have a much simpler plan of allowing you to get all the updates since you last subscribed for a single maintenance update price.

I’d say Xojo are being very generous - or maybe Xojo just don’t have a cross-grade plan. Either way as a Xojo client I can skip 1 to several years of maintenance & catch up with a single 1 year sub. Good Value!

Eric Brown:

You seems to be a newbie in the computer use.

One of the first things to learn (and you are in the path) is to make backups; you will avoid loosing what you do.

Next time, use a text editor (name depends on your running OS, I think at wordpad for example), type your text, save it and then, only then, deal with the Feedback software.

For developing application(s), may I suggest you to do the same thing: after writing a bit of time, save the project before running it.

Remember: before driving a car, you have to learn how to, learn the code usage (red lights, STOP, etc.), pass the driving license and get it. 'till then, you are not able to drive. Bad ? Probably for some, but not for all.

I find the Xojo licence cost and support plan and duration to be very favourable. There is no software of any significance that is without bugs, the software that Xojo writes has bugs and the software that we write has bugs - the only reasonable question can be - is it good enough? That is a matter of cost vs. quality that Xojo and we agree with our customers. Sure Xojo has bugs and if you are prepared to sick around those bugs will get fixed (and more will get introduced) but I can write useful and functional applications with Xojo today and I have not found any issues that I cannot work around somehow. I get frustrated at times like everyone else but when I cool down and think about it, it is fair and reasonable.

Its just soo painful, to realize that i just missed 2013R3 update by 10days with my current plan. and i dont know when i can pay for upgrade again and r2 isnt that stable for me, lots of crashes, more then i had with realstudio…
,)